Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Rufalus]

Instead of having a raid finder, they could just add more options to the DF.

*Only match with players who have cleared the duty.

and the opposite

*Only match with one or more first-time players.

[Dualgunner]

To be perfectly honest, I 100% understand your point of view. But I also understand why nobility wouldn't want to associate with peasants; that doesn't mean I support feudalism.

On a side note, you seem pretty obsessed with calling newbies peasants and unwashed masses...

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing, either. This is why games like Overwatch have ranked matchmaking--it sucks for a newbie to get paired with someone who plays nonstop. It sucks for someone who wants to farm something to know that every DF that pops comes with the possibility of someone hopping in without even watching the vid and expecting the fight to be easy enough to do.

If a player doesn't want to teach they shouldn't be forced to, and yet without raid finder the chances are high that they'll have to. A fight that should take ten minutes suddenly takes up to 90 and what time the player had to farm is now up, and so is the free time the player set aside to farm. So they'll go instead to party finder and pray nobody sneaks in hoping for a carry, and DF will be even more dead than RF Uncleared is, meaning people hoping to just experience the fight have even less chance of doing so.

[Talraen]

On a side note, you seem pretty obsessed with calling newbies peasants and unwashed masses...

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing, either. This is why games like Overwatch have ranked matchmaking--it sucks for a newbie to get paired with someone who plays nonstop. It sucks for someone who wants to farm something to know that every DF that pops comes with the possibility of someone hopping in without even watching the vid and expecting the fight to be easy enough to do.

If a player doesn't want to teach they shouldn't be forced to, and yet without raid finder the chances are high that they'll have to. A fight that should take ten minutes suddenly takes up to 90 and what time the player had to farm is now up, and so is the free time the player set aside to farm. So they'll go instead to party finder and pray nobody sneaks in hoping for a carry, and DF will be even more dead than RF Uncleared is, meaning people hoping to just experience the fight have even less chance of doing so.

People certain treat new players like the unwashed masses. Do you have a better analogy?

Matchmaking in competitive games is not a fair comparison. It's actually kind of the opposite in a cooperative experience. If you're inexperienced and you get put against an experienced player in Overwatch, you're going to fail (lose). But if you're inexperienced and you get paired with experienced players in a trial, you're more likely to succeed. (And if you get paired only with inexperienced people, you're less likely to succeed.)

Your interpretation of how DF and RF will affect things is based on the premise that players with clears are universally unwilling to help new players. I can't honestly say if that's true or not, since I don't do Extreme trials except with friends, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. And if there's even one person with a clear who will use DF if RF isn't available, that's still a positive for a player without a clear. I don't understand how you can argue it makes new players less likely to get a clear. At worst, it's no different.

Keep in mind the premise of the OP's request is that new players are a liability. If that's the case, why are we expecting them to get clears with each other?

[aleph_null]

Your interpretation of how DF and RF will affect things is based on the premise that players with clears are universally unwilling to help new players. I can't honestly say if that's true or not, since I don't do Extreme trials except with friends, but it seems pretty unlikely to me. And if there's even one person with a clear who will use DF if RF isn't available, that's still a positive for a player without a clear.

Not exactly, pre 3.3 DF for hard contents like thordan ex and a3s-a4s (post nerf and overgearing) in NA/EU data centers seemed to be pretty much dysfunctional, since new players won't be able to learn the whole fights in 60-90 minutes. DF queues for those fights became useless since people who want to practice later phases or aim to clear, let alone farm can't do what they want then they get matched with someone who's new to the fights. It's just an unofficial "first phase practice" queue, presumably with very abysmal clear rate, though I'm not playing in NA/EU data centers so I can only say that based on what people say in the forum. If those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear. The DF system in JP data centers worked because of the culture adopted by the players here, where DF is pretty much reserved for farming (or at least those who are ready to aim to clear), with little exceptions of people who have no idea queuing into those hard fights.

Keep in mind the premise of the OP's request is that new players are a liability. If that's the case, why are we expecting them to get clears with each other?

We are expecting them to learn the fight first before expecting clears. Other than sophia and zurvan I don't remember any previous ex trial being possible to be cleared by people new to the fight within one lockout.

[Talraen]

Not exactly, pre 3.3 DF for hard contents like thordan ex and a3s-a4s (post nerf and overgearing) in NA/EU data centers seemed to be pretty much dysfunctional, since new players won't be able to learn the whole fights in 60-90 minutes. DF queues for those fights became useless since people who want to practice later phases or aim to clear, let alone farm can't do what they want then they get matched with someone who's new to the fights. It's just an unofficial "first phase practice" queue, presumably with very abysmal clear rate, though I'm not playing in NA/EU data centers so I can only say that based on what people say in the forum. If those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear. The DF system in JP data centers worked because of the culture adopted by the players here, where DF is pretty much reserved for farming (or at least those who are ready to aim to clear), with little exceptions of people who have no idea queuing into those hard fights.

You said that if "those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear" but the alternative (the raid finder option, which is what is being asked for in this thread) is that the people who are farming will queue and the newbies still won't benefit at all, because they can't queue with them. Unless you mean that newbies will be able to use the duty finder to queue with other newbies who also don't have clears, but I don't know why that would improve their chances either.

We are expecting them to learn the fight first before expecting clears. Other than sophia and zurvan I don't remember any previous ex trial being possible to be cleared by people new to the fight within one lockout.

This thread is about an option to prevent people without a clear from queuing with people who don't want to queue with them. If those people learn the fight, or have even done it on another character, they still can't queue with them in the raid finder. So how does them learning the fight help them here?

[Feidam]

As to the person who complained about the raid mechanics in primal battles...I'm not sure what the issue here is. It has always been that way. The difference was you had hard mode primals which gave you a reward to progress, the. Extremes came along with another reward. Only extremes are giving people rewards now. This also needs to change imo.

[aleph_null]

You said that if "those players who want to clear/farm won't queue, then even the newbies won't benefit at all since there's literally no chance for them to clear" but the alternative (the raid finder option, which is what is being asked for in this thread) is that the people who are farming will queue and the newbies still won't benefit at all, because they can't queue with them. Unless you mean that newbies will be able to use the duty finder to queue with other newbies who also don't have clears, but I don't know why that would improve their chances either.

They have a chance to get queued together with people who want to learn/help in the duty incomplete queue. Of course there will be much less people who are helping new players to clear the fight, compared to people who just want to farm the fight. As I've said multiple times, sometimes helping others learn the fight means not clearing the fight itself, which means you earn nothing from spending 60-90 minutes with them, other than the pleasure of helping others and helping the playerbase get better as a whole (which admittedly, doesn't help much to get your bird mount or weapons/tokens/whatever).

This thread is about an option to prevent people without a clear from queuing with people who don't want to queue with them. If those people learn the fight, or have even done it on another character, they still can't queue with them in the raid finder. So how does them learning the fight help them here?

There's a queue for aim to clear group (duty completion + duty incomplete). You make it sound like it's impossible to clear the fight together with others who haven't clear too. It's hard but doable. I did it in thordan ex, which arguably is the hardest ex trial in heavensward, just by joining practice/clear PF groups. Some of these fights are hard enough that you won't clear even if you're the only person in the group who haven't cleared. If you're late to the content it'll obviously be harder for you to find people to learn and clear the fight together, but that's just how it works in this game. You can't really avoid obsolescence in a vertical progression MMO.

Let's go further and think about the reason why most cleared people only want to go with people who have cleared too. The answer is quite simple, because the content is difficult enough. It's hard to carry people who know little to nothing about the fight. It takes a very long time to completely teach them the fight. You can probably slip into a ravana or bismarck clear party with bonus, and people will just ignore you and clear the fight while pretending you never existed, because they still can. That fight is so easy due to overgearing that you don't see half of the whole fight. It's a different problem if you slip into a12s queue without knowing anything, and if I was going to farm a12s then I'll definitely have problem with it since that pretty much means it's impossible to clear it. It takes hours (even weeks/months) for people to learn a12s before they clear it. When I join a practice or clear party for a12s I do so while keeping in mind that I don't expect a clear, but when I farm of course I expect clears (preferably smooth and easy ones too).

[Vaer]

It seems to me OP just wants a better way to figure out who is ninjaing into PF farm parties when they have no clear. It just so happens that RF did that as a side effect when you attempted to queue. There was another thread about a similar topic recently.

Right now I guess your options are to just throw darts or everyone just leaves when no one fesses up if wipes occur.

[Astyrah]

we don't have this problem in JP datacentre. i think NA and EU players just need to be honest and courteous instead of thinking of themselves first (it goes both ways). i was able to farm all my birds and get the phoenix mount via RF completed queue because no one queues completion if they didn't know the fight (and almost no one pays for clears there so you wont get people who got carried and sneaks into the completed queue) -> it's all about respecting other people.

if you want to try and clear primal ex and savage, create a "looking for help/learning" cross world pf (being very specific helps like "learning from phase1", "adds phase onward", learning from "1st void phase, looking to clear hopefully") -> it does not fill up? grab your LS and FC friends to come with you. no LS and FC friends who want to help? it's time to socialise - this is an MMORPG after all and social aspect is one of the big things in Multiplayer games. find a helping_you_content LS -> find a friendly raiding FC who wish to help you learn -> etc.etc. but you also have to carry your own weight and not put burden on others. this is why we have mentors and novices because everyone is new at one point.

it's the same for people who want to farm. they have a network of LS or FC people (and those from other FCs) and friendslists who they meet regularly in farms because they already did the above and they actually took the time to try and learn. because not everyone starts off in "farm status" right away everyone is new at one point. they will create PF and they expect like minded people and people of the same progression to join, if they want to help they will join the above learning and clearing pts, and will likely to join if they know how much time or effort they'd spend teaching if the PF was specific to what phase is being practised on.

[aleph_null]

Raid finder was (probably) meant to help less populated servers by allowing them to queue to raids and ex trials with players from other servers (they were introduced before cross server PF), and it was kinda successful, many of my friends got their first clears via RF in midas and creator savage. I never got a first clear via RF but I've farmed a5s-a7s and a9s-a12s using it. The separation by early/late phase practice, aim to clear and farm (weekly clear) is imo necessary because of the difficulty (it's very unlikely that you can teach someone who's learning the first phase to be able to execute the whole fight in a single lockout of 90 minutes) and weekly loot restriction (completion queue makes sure all 8 people in the group have not cleared for that week).