Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

[Vidu]

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

1) Not everyone who doesnt has cleared a certain type of content, even WANTS or can (by can I mean: having the "personal" skill, as in being good enough by themself) clear that content - so the number that would actually be intresting is "How many people want to clear said content but havent yet?" (Judging by the amount of learn vs. farm parties I see in DF... there seem to be a lot more people who want to farm than those who want/need to clear)
2) Now that we have established that a good amount of clearless people might not even care for the clear, lets rethink "majority should be most important" - that sounds appealingly true at first, but is it? I say: Its not. Most often those people who are raiding/doing ex-primals are those who are really invested into the game, might have been for years and hopefully for SE will continue to stay loyal to the game. Giving reasons to farm those fights (for example the mounts - and even more so with HW now: Kill the primal 99 times, get the mount) almost screams "Farm me!" To keep this playerbase, who is actually intrested in that, happy by giving them the means to make farming easier (RF-clear-option) is a pretty good move by SE
3) You're focussed on the benefits of the newbies - but do they really benefit from getting paird up with impatient people who want a fast clear and will get upset at them because they're failing easy mechanics? No, they dont benefit from that. By seperating those people from those who are new (and those who are willing to teach/take it slower) the toxic behaviour in those fights gets reduced

Also to clear this up: Is your issue that less people are queueing for the content with RF (because you've got two queues) or is your issue that people who havent cleared it ar less likely to be lumped together with those who have?
Because if its the later it sounds a lot like "It is more difficult for newbies to get carried in DF" and not "Its more difficult for them to see the fight".
Expecting a carry and being upset when that doesnt happen anymore... phew...

[Jijifli]

1) Not everyone who doesnt has cleared a certain type of content, even WANTS or can (by can I mean: having the "personal" skill, as in being good enough by themself) clear that content - so the number that would actually be intresting is "How many people want to clear said content but havent yet?" (Judging by the amount of learn vs. farm parties I see in DF... there seem to be a lot more people who want to farm than those who want/need to clear)

I'm only countering this because this is something that irritates me.

You see farm parties more because so few people will join a learning party. I still have yet to clear extremes because learning parties never happen. I have even bothered to make one myself, only to sit around for 40 minutes before closing it because nobody joined it. My FC was trying to do Seph, even when it wasn't the newest one, and we couldn't do it because we could not get 8 people to come along in for a learning party.

That's part of Talraen's point. It's so much of a hassle to even try to get a learning party going that some people who want to do the content end up not doing it. I think as a middle ground though, we should be able to tell quickly who the new person is when the message pops up. It is rude to join a farm as someone who never did it, at least not without permission. That way you don't have to worry about trying to figure out who, but it'll make it easier for those who still haven't cleared.

[Talraen]

1) Not everyone who doesnt has cleared a certain type of content, even WANTS or can (by can I mean: having the "personal" skill, as in being good enough by themself) clear that content - so the number that would actually be intresting is "How many people want to clear said content but havent yet?" (Judging by the amount of learn vs. farm parties I see in DF... there seem to be a lot more people who want to farm than those who want/need to clear)
2) Now that we have established that a good amount of clearless people might not even care for the clear, lets rethink "majority should be most important" - that sounds appealingly true at first, but is it? I say: Its not. Most often those people who are raiding/doing ex-primals are those who are really invested into the game, might have been for years and hopefully for SE will continue to stay loyal to the game. Giving reasons to farm those fights (for example the mounts - and even more so with HW now: Kill the primal 99 times, get the mount) almost screams "Farm me!" To keep this playerbase, who is actually intrested in that, happy by giving them the means to make farming easier (RF-clear-option) is a pretty good move by SE
3) You're focussed on the benefits of the newbies - but do they really benefit from getting paird up with impatient people who want a fast clear and will get upset at them because they're failing easy mechanics? No, they dont benefit from that. By seperating those people from those who are new (and those who are willing to teach/take it slower) the toxic behaviour in those fights gets reduced

Also to clear this up: Is your issue that less people are queueing for the content with RF (because you've got two queues) or is your issue that people who havent cleared it ar less likely to be lumped together with those who have?
Because if its the later it sounds a lot like "It is more difficult for newbies to get carried in DF" and not "Its more difficult for them to see the fight".
Expecting a carry and being upset when that doesnt happen anymore... phew...

1.) Is a fair point
2.) Consider why Square Enix adds mounts to make old content farm-friendly. They aren't doing this to keep old players loyal, they're doing it to keep people running the content so new people can get clears! I think your argument here is exactly backwards.
3.) As I said elsewhere, it sucks to be biased against when you join a party, but at least you have a chance of getting the clear when you do that. You don't have any chance to clear with a party that you can't join. So yes, this is a net benefit to a player without a clear, even if it's a questionable one.

My issue is that people are upset that they lost the option to exclude players. I have never used the raid finder, nor have I used the duty finder for content that was ever in the raid finder, pretty much because of the attitudes espoused in this thread. The toxicity isn't being avoided, it's just being couched in different terms. Empathy is in short supply.

To be perfectly honest, I 100% understand your point of view. But I also understand why nobility wouldn't want to associate with peasants; that doesn't mean I support feudalism.

[Rufalus]

Instead of having a raid finder, they could just add more options to the DF.

*Only match with players who have cleared the duty.

and the opposite

*Only match with one or more first-time players.

[Vidu]

snip

I fully understand your point - and even though I'm often open to help and teach, I still have to ask (like, in general, not you personal): Is it fair that those who have the desire and skill to farm content are thrown back at square one each time they attemtept to do it in DF?
I've done that back for Ramuh EX, because I wanted that pony to bad - it was not fun. Not fun at all. I got maybe 4 or 5 clears in DF - and with that about... 30 people their clears, I'd say? I stopped when my friends got a bit worried about my sanity - when we farmed it again eventually they'd let me have the first pony to prevent me from going back into DF.
With RF-clear and Sophia however they gladly joined me and we had good, proper farmruns.

Maybe I'm super-selfish here, but I dont want to constantly sacrifice my time and the fun I have with this game and various contents because I end up at square one each time I'd like to do the content but dont want to comitt to a farm-party.
SEs goal should be to make their game the most pleasent experience possible for everyone - and RF is adding to that, by giving us a CHOICE.

(Also... I thought Balmung had such a high population? It surprises me that you couldnt get a party together...)

[Dualgunner]

To be perfectly honest, I 100% understand your point of view. But I also understand why nobility wouldn't want to associate with peasants; that doesn't mean I support feudalism.

On a side note, you seem pretty obsessed with calling newbies peasants and unwashed masses...

Discrimination isn't always a bad thing, either. This is why games like Overwatch have ranked matchmaking--it sucks for a newbie to get paired with someone who plays nonstop. It sucks for someone who wants to farm something to know that every DF that pops comes with the possibility of someone hopping in without even watching the vid and expecting the fight to be easy enough to do.

If a player doesn't want to teach they shouldn't be forced to, and yet without raid finder the chances are high that they'll have to. A fight that should take ten minutes suddenly takes up to 90 and what time the player had to farm is now up, and so is the free time the player set aside to farm. So they'll go instead to party finder and pray nobody sneaks in hoping for a carry, and DF will be even more dead than RF Uncleared is, meaning people hoping to just experience the fight have even less chance of doing so.

[Vaer]

It seems to me OP just wants a better way to figure out who is ninjaing into PF farm parties when they have no clear. It just so happens that RF did that as a side effect when you attempted to queue. There was another thread about a similar topic recently.

Right now I guess your options are to just throw darts or everyone just leaves when no one fesses up if wipes occur.

[Jijifli]

snip

Within 5 hours of the extreme coming out, it's only be farm parties up. And I personally don't end up doing the extremes early in the patch because I'm busy with other things, so by the time I want to do it, it's already too late.

Maybe with the change I mentioned (Where you can tell who's the new member,) it'd help farm parties with that issue, while still letting people go in DF queue without some long wait. It'd help both sides in this.

[Astyrah]

we don't have this problem in JP datacentre. i think NA and EU players just need to be honest and courteous instead of thinking of themselves first (it goes both ways). i was able to farm all my birds and get the phoenix mount via RF completed queue because no one queues completion if they didn't know the fight (and almost no one pays for clears there so you wont get people who got carried and sneaks into the completed queue) -> it's all about respecting other people.

if you want to try and clear primal ex and savage, create a "looking for help/learning" cross world pf (being very specific helps like "learning from phase1", "adds phase onward", learning from "1st void phase, looking to clear hopefully") -> it does not fill up? grab your LS and FC friends to come with you. no LS and FC friends who want to help? it's time to socialise - this is an MMORPG after all and social aspect is one of the big things in Multiplayer games. find a helping_you_content LS -> find a friendly raiding FC who wish to help you learn -> etc.etc. but you also have to carry your own weight and not put burden on others. this is why we have mentors and novices because everyone is new at one point.

it's the same for people who want to farm. they have a network of LS or FC people (and those from other FCs) and friendslists who they meet regularly in farms because they already did the above and they actually took the time to try and learn. because not everyone starts off in "farm status" right away everyone is new at one point. they will create PF and they expect like minded people and people of the same progression to join, if they want to help they will join the above learning and clearing pts, and will likely to join if they know how much time or effort they'd spend teaching if the PF was specific to what phase is being practised on.

[aleph_null]

Literally the function of that checkbox is to make it so certain people won't be able to join your party. That's the definition of exclusion.

Actually, it should, for two reasons. First, people without clears are in the majority, and when you're trying to keep subscriptions, the majority is almost always the most important consideration. Second, encouraging a system of haves and have-nots leads to people being disillusioned and quitting the game. Also a money issue. It's not good business to divide your user base. Indeed, I imagine that's why raids get removed from the raid finder in the first place.

Personally I think people trying to practice or get first clear should be using PF, just like how in the JP data centers most people use the "simpler" (as in not being able to choose who you'll be grouped, how far they've progressed in the fight) DF queue for farms, because farm parties need much less communication than practice parties or aim to clear parties. You just use macro to outline the strategy, people call out their spread positions, priorities etc, that's it. Everyone knows the fight. This works even when there's a language barrier between the Japanese and English speakers in JP servers, as long as we use google translate to get rough understanding on the macro.

When we're talking about practice and aim to clear parties, there are a lot more variables involved. Are you practicing for the early phases? Or are you trying to clear because you've practiced everything up to the last phase of the fight? Are you going in blind, not watching/reading any guide? Are you trying a non-standard strategy? You have absolutely no control in DF, unlike PF where you can specify if you're practicing certain parts, using different strategies, doing blind runs for challenge etc. You can't just mix everyone aiming for different goals like that together and hope they'll somehow work it out and clear the fight.

I have never used the raid finder, nor have I used the duty finder for content that was ever in the raid finder, pretty much because of the attitudes espoused in this thread. The toxicity isn't being avoided, it's just being couched in different terms. Empathy is in short supply.

This probably explains why you're thinking this way. For the harder contents in this game, helping new players doesn't mean clearing in 30 minutes instead of 15 minutes. It may mean NOT clearing at all in 90 minutes. Some of these fights aren't so simple/easy that you can learn the whole thing in 60-90 minutes, so if you want to farm the content, having even one person new to the fight in your group can completely make it impossible to clear. It's not that people don't want to help others learn, but sometimes helping others learn means not clearing the fight.