DPSing as a healer

[Megotaku]

The question I have on this topic is why is this game's community so absolutely fine with the total lack of playstyle diversity in this game? You can DPS. You can DPS and heal. You can DPS and tank. Someone pointed out that in the bleeding edge content with the world first people doing it undergeared, they were doing it with SCHs DPSing 90% of the time and WHMs DPSing 20% of the time. How is it the content is so painfully easy that undergeared in the hardest content this game has to offer any of the healers have a free moment to DPS?

I've even been told that there is an enormous gap in defenses between PLD and the other two tanks, but it's irrelevant because the content just isn't challenging enough for the sole job a tank is supposed to do (avoid damage) to matter. So WAR is OP... because DPS. Kind of a shame there's only one way to play in this game: DPS.

[Rongway]

The question I have on this topic is why is this game's community so absolutely fine with the total lack of playstyle diversity in this game?
...
Kind of a shame there's only one way to play in this game: DPS.

A healer with a respectable damage output makes the difference between a 25 minute dungeon run and a 15 minute run. This is huge. And for a healer to deny the party this advantage when the healer is totally capable of dealing that much damage without putting anyone at risk would be petty, lazy, or any of several other words that are decidedly not "respectable".

[Megotaku]

[...]petty, lazy, or any of several other words that are decidedly not "respectable".

Yes, that's a concise list of disgusting and toxic words I've come to expect from this community when I try to learn about how other archetypes function in this game. Don't demand content with harsher group damage so tank mitigation or healer HPS is tested. Don't demand healer or tank abilities that naturally translate into DPS. Instead, require tanks and healers to use DPS rotations with no synergy with their archetypal roles and call them "lazy" when they don't find this engaging. I say, once again, it's a real shame this game only has one playstyle: DPS. You realize this attitude makes new players like me feel like it has absolutely nothing to offer veteran tanks and healers coming from other games, only DPS primadonnas that care about the damage meter at the end of the run.

A healer with a respectable damage output makes the difference between a 25 minute dungeon run and a 15 minute run.

Personally, if I was a DPS and the healer's damage output was high enough to reduce run clear speed by 40%, I would be livid. It would make my class seem incompetently designed that an archetype can pull the job of full healer and full DPS simultaneously. Apparently, this is what is accepted by the community here, though. So when in Rome, allow the healers to humiliate and trivialize the DPS roles, I guess. In other titles the DPS is so hysterically better than the tanks or healers that I wouldn't be so wholly dependent on their DPS contributions to get through basic content. I genuinely wonder why people even play DPS now, given how utterly useless they are. There really is no way to square this circle. I already know healer AoE DPS is second only to SMN or BLM, so if the dungeon finder didn't obligate you to take DPS classes there would be no reason to take them. Apparently, I'm the only person in this game who sees an issue with this.

[mp-please]

A healer with a respectable damage output makes the difference between a 25 minute dungeon run and a 15 minute run.

More like turning a 20 min run into a 17 min ish run. A good healer can maintain 1200 dps but don't expect that to have a 10 min impact on the run lol, mainly with the current expert system where healer aoes are almost obsolete.

[_slowpoke_]

A good healer can maintain 1200 dps but don't expect that to have a 10 min impact on the run lol

Healer DPS can be up to a third of the total party DPS in an average DF party, and in my experience often even more. That is usually about a 40-50% increase in DPS overall. So yes, it can (and often will) absolutely make a 10 minute impact on a run.

mainly with the current expert system where healer aoes are almost obsolete.

Err, what? I think we're playing different games, because that's patently wrong. You can (and should) AoE on almost every pull in the current set of Experts, even if your tank is doing small pulls. In fact, I can't even think of half a dozen pulls in there where it's not worth it to primarily use AoE abilities (Sohr Kai: first set of those stone mobs, the double dragons and the single dragon near the end; Hullbreaker: High Tide & Low Tide, Rhiki).

[Megotaku]

Healer DPS can be up to a third of the total party DPS in an average DF party, and in my experience often even more. That is usually about a 40-50% increase in DPS overall. So yes, it can (and often will) absolutely make a 10 minute impact on a run.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about. 4 people in the group and the healer is the one pulling 1/3rd of the damage. DPS roles are useless and no one sees a problem here.

[mp-please]

Healer DPS can be up to a third of the total party DPS in an average DF party, and in my experience often even more. That is usually about a 40-50% increase in DPS overall. So yes, it can (and often will) absolutely make a 10 minute impact on a run.

Looking at a parse right now with a total dps of 2200, party took 23mins to clear. You need a 3500-4000 dps party to clear it under 17mins, so no it won't be 10 mins by a long shot.
You can usually expect from the average DF run 400 dps from the tank, 1k from each dps and another 1k from the healer. With a competent party you'll be seeing 800 ish from tank, 1.5k~1.8k from each dps and still 1k from the healer.
The latter (5k) are the usual ones who get 15 min runs in the current experts, average of 3.5k take roughly 18mins, 2.5k go around 25 mins.

So no, it's not 10 mins. It helps but let's not exaggerate.

Err, what? I think we're playing different games, because that's patently wrong.

Single target is better if you have 3 or less mobs, at least for whm. It's more mp effective in the long run and provides the same dps due to mp restrictions. Yes i know well there are a few pulls with 3+ and that's why i said almost.

[_slowpoke_]

Looking at a parse right now with a total dps of 2200, party took 23mins to clear. You need a 3500-4000 dps party to clear it under 17mins, so no it won't be 10 mins by a long shot.

I don't think you get the point, which was that a healer who does appropriate DPS versus a healer who doesn't DPS at all will speed up runs enormously. Again, it's around a 50% increase in party DPS on average, which - depending on how aggressive your tank is with chain pulling - translates to 20-40% decrease in clear time, which can be up to 10 minutes depending on the skill of the DPS players.

It's more mp effective in the long run and provides the same dps due to mp restrictions.

Nope, still wrong. I AoE almost constantly as a WHM on basically every pull in both of these dungeons (and have in all preceding Expert dungeons in HW) unless the two DPS players are really, really slow. If you aren't, you're doing something wrong.

[mp-please]

.

I'll explain to you again since clearly you didn't understood anything of what i just said.

You have a party doing 2500 dps aka, 1 dps doing 1k, another dps doing 1k, tank doing 500 and healer doing 0. Party clears in 23 mins.
Then
You have a party doing 3500 dps, aka, 1 dps doing 1k, another dps doing 1k, tank doing 500 and healer doing 1k. Party clears in 18 mins.

23-18 isn't 10. Stop exaggerating.
It's bad that healers don't dps but please don't put healer dps on a pedestal the doesn't exist. Last i we need is more lazy dps players who expect the healer to do half of the party dps because someone on OF said so. Plus a more realistic % is 28~30% considering the average DF run, not 40~50%.

.

And i've been running experts since 2.1, what does that matter for this convo? Either way the point is dps/mp, yes it doesn't matter much in dungeons but it's always a fun practice for harder content.