Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[Mattelot]

Then please stop labeling everything as an elitist like you have been. You keep putting it in the wrong context which is why we keep having this boomerang discussion

I've not been labeling everything an elitist. If you had been actually reading or paying attention, you'd see what I called an elitist.

Apples and oranges are still fruits.

Spaghetti and Chevrolet are still nouns. What's your point?

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Also, you've not answered my question. Where does someone get triggered to go where to look for the person to tell them how they're supposed to play their game?

Bob just finished Assassin's Creed and hobbled his way to Gamestop. He picks up Heavensward and thinks "hmm, this looks fun, i'll give it a go!" He thinks "I like punching things, so I'll try this "pugilist" character." What triggers Bob to say "ok, I need to find Flo Fyloord from Famfrit so (s)he can tell me how to play this game.

[randysquirrel]

Me: Why are you manually clicking off the balance buff I'm giving you?
BLM: ....
Me: It's a damage up buff
BLM: ....
Me: It only benefits you
BLM: ....

Fixed.
For the actual incident I experienced yesterday. Three balances wasted.

[Mattelot]

That's an odd one, randy. It could also be a DF troll. I've heard of and read stories of them. I don't really think I've ran into any other than a Au Ra Paladin in Aurum Vale.

[bass9020]

That's an odd one, randy. It could also be a DF troll. I've heard of and read stories of them. I don't really think I've ran into any other than a Au Ra Paladin in Aurum Vale.

You've never run into a Bard who doesn't use foe because they think it lowers there dps or a Paladin who doesn't flash because it doesn't do damage? Lucky you then. Im sure they are just trolling but advice is offered said person is scolded even if saying it with good intensions. If these people were graded and clearly saw what they do is a problem maybe it would click.

[Brian_]

I'd disagree; whether it's the cause or the effect of it, both the design and the (lack of) systems encourage the mindset of wanting to play how you want (regardless of the detriment to the party), being given a pass for not understanding the basics, or having an absurdly high expectation (through the form of vote kicking for "playstyle differences).

Disagree with what? You have a problem in your posting. It's often a bunch of off-point verbal diarrhea. I said the content wasn't a problem, it's the systems surrounding the content that fail it. You just said you disagree but only address the failure of the systems.

For an MMO, I really do not feel that this is the case. People are already going into the game with mindsets, playstyle, and overall attitude of their own, which is going to change in regards to how the game is presented to them (Moba and team games promote more of a competitive attitude, and a higher interaction with their team, positive and negative, for example). What we have right now is a game that is giving you the information that you need to perform your role, but not actually reinforce it through the content. Solo instances hold your hand for the most part, most dungeons are tuned so low (with very few exceptions, which are optional) that people are never really held accountable. It goes back to my first point which I still disagree with you on; design of the game has a factor on why this is a thing. It's a multitude of factors, not just one.

Again, totally misses the point. You are trying to address an issue by looking at the result. I am saying that you need to look at the origin. Just look at the reality that the same content can give birth to very different players. You bring up the truth that different people will have different motivations and goals and look at other gaming genres but you don't connect the dots.

Different types of people will play a genre like an FPS, MOBA, or RTS. But, in those games, people generally play to win. They can be bad, play the game incorrectly, be horribly toxic, but at the end of the day, the people who play purely to grief, throw games, and lose are a tiny minority. By nature of fostering a competitive environment, whether it be through a ladder, ranked play, rating, or just game stats, you unify differing motivations and goals into a singular, upward direction -- victory.

It's no different from managing personnel in a company. Everyone is different in what they want to take away from a job and what they want to put into a job. As the boss of a company, your goal is to somehow nullify that variation in motivation and get people on the same productive page. As some very well known entrepreneurs have said, it's sometimes just easier to only hire A players because you eliminate a lot of variance and headache that comes from trying to unify a team of A players, B players, and C players. That's why statics are a thing in this game.

It doesn't matter if you give someone the information needed to do their job or the content to reinforce it if they don't care. What you need to do is make even the most casual player care just as much about the result as a motivated elite player does.

I played a lot of WoW during Vanilla and BC on the largest PvP server at the time. Everyone -- even casuals -- wanted to be geared. The benefits of that gear were massive. Without gear, you were complete cannon fodder to a geared raider. And, because at the time the best gear was all locked behind a massive PvP grind or the hardest raid content, they had to pursue those means for that goal. So, they either had to become a competent PvPer, a competent raider, or deal with getting ganked , camped, and crapped on by people who were those things. When your gaming experience is reduced to grovelling to your guildmates or friends to save you from hours of merciless t-bagging, it's a little hard to not care.

So turning back to FFXIV, what is the goal? For casual players, the extent of their motivation might be to play virtual barbie with cat girls and cat boys. They see a fully geared A8S cleared player and they don't care. That world has nothing to do with them unless there is a cute glamour they want. With that context, how can you reasonably expect them to be motivated to be a better player? Going back to my previous point, the problem is not the content. FFXIV has some of the most challenging raid content in the industry right now. If players wanted to aspire to a PvE standard, it's there.

So, just like I've already said, this grading system doesn't make people care. Why would a bad player care about clearing content a bit slower and with more toxicity? It doesn't get in the way of their ultimate goal. And, it doesn't make good players care about the team because doing so doesn't benefit their ultimate goal. The goal is creating a system and culture where everyone cares about everyone being better at the game because that is aligned with their shared goal.

[MihaelB]

It's no different from managing personnel in a company. Everyone is different in what they want to take away from a job and what they want to put into a job. As the boss of a company, your goal is to somehow nullify that variation in motivation and get people on the same productive page. As some very well known entrepreneurs have said, it's sometimes just easier to only hire A players because you eliminate a lot of variance and headache that comes from trying to unify a team of A players, B players, and C players. That's why statics are a thing in this game.

Facing the main point first, yes majority are casuals. Yes most won't ever reach the standard of the top raid. Yes there's a unification necessary for the player database but currently there is no unification, there is nothing but continual daily repetition of the negative space you see in this thread. 416 pages don't lie about the type of people you will face in duty finder.

If you manage a company with all staff aspiring for their own goals with one common denominator, that would be money. Money being most akin to a parallel to our game, we all need to work with various people to buy gear, glamours, crafting materials, housing furniture and minions with eso tomes.

If your team is incompetent, you would kick him. If your staff is incompetent, you would give him a warning and if he's not doing any better, you will fire him.
What would the fired staff do? They've been fired and their record if asked, would show they have been fired from their previous job.

Moving back to the money denominator, we live in a class-based ranked society. Do you want more money than the person who cleans your bathrooms? Yes? Ok I'll need to spend time studying in university to hopefully get to the stage to make the money I wish. Do I want even more money from there? Yes? Ok I will study a higher level of education for the managerial position for further progress up the chain and earn more money.

What separates the classes and occupations? The knowledge, experience and skills honed through the years of training.

Paralleling this, time spent on learning your rotations and skills will yield you better numbers and better efficiency in playing your class as you tone your skills necessary for the content provided. The mental capacity is also very apparent from a raider and non raider when I do duties (myself being a non-raider). The rewards in games for their skills is the unique gear they get and the skills they possess.

Moving back a step again back to the class-based real life parallel, would you choose a person with 0 education to help you with your daily work as a manager? Does a manager have the skills to be a janitor?

Moving back further again, yes, this is just a game. Yes this is our leisure activity but that does not mean we all need to be mediocre at what we do with no incentive of improving. No advancement in life or a game will lead to stagnancy and many of us feel that the current system is stagnant.

[RiceisNice]

Disagree with what? You have a problem in your posting. It's often a bunch of off-point verbal diarrhea. I said the content wasn't a problem, it's the systems surrounding the content that fail it. You just said you disagree but only address the failure of the systems.

The design of the content goes in hand with the system (or lack of). If the content allows below-minimal play to be passable, it falls onto the system and community to address it.

So turning back to FFXIV, what is the goal? For casual players, the extent of their motivation might be to play virtual barbie with cat girls and cat boys. They see a fully geared A8S cleared player and they don't care. That world has nothing to do with them unless there is a cute glamour they want. With that context, how can you reasonably expect them to be motivated to be a better player? Going back to my previous point, the problem is not the content. FFXIV has some of the most challenging raid content in the industry right now. If players wanted to aspire to a PvE standard, it's there.

The content I'm referring to is anything that isn't a raid or EX trial (normal mode trials, roulettes and 24 mans), or even side content like aquapolis, diadem or the soon to be palace. I'm really not sure how to word it anymore to get my point across because I feel like I'm repeating myself. The content is designed to allow players to essentially to psuedo-afk and let the burden fall onto the 3, 7 or 23 members of the party. In your example of someone playing only for the glamour, even something like going into a dungeon would require party play to acquire something they want. However as of now, they can do that without any investment into playing the game properly if the party is willing to put up with it. You mentioned that a player doens't have to worry about being better or playing in a toxic environment because it won't get in the way of their goal (acquiring glamour or tomestones) because both the content (they can be carried) and the system (limited kicking/policing) allow for it.

I've lost my train of thought now after being away for the entire day, I'm just gonna end up repeating myself again so I'll bail out.

[Klamor]

Moving back to the money denominator, we live in a class-based ranked society. Do you want more money than the person who cleans your bathrooms? Yes? Ok I'll need to spend time studying in university to hopefully get to the stage to make the money I wish. Do I want even more money from there? Yes? Ok I will study a higher level of education for the managerial position for further progress up the chain and earn more money.

First, let me start by saying I agree with everything you wrote here.

Second, I feel I need to remind you that we're living in a society where people that work at McDonald's went on strike and demanded they get paid $15/hour, actually got it, and then were surprised AF when companies started rolling out automated kiosks for order placements.

Those two points addressed, I would very deeply like to see the lowest common denominator be increased and improved so that everyone gets higher quality players in their dungeons whether they actually care about that or not. (Nobody would ever, in their right minds, complain about something that is better. Nobody would say "I'd prefer it if this was worse than how it is." ... at least I'd hope not.)

However, in regards to a ranking system, I believe this is something that would make the duty finder much more enjoyable for people on both sides of the spectrum. Better ranked players would on average be grouped with similar, better ranked players. On the other side, lower ranked players would be grouped with other lower ranked players. You'll inevitably find the outliers in both groups who are disgruntled with where they're currently ranked, and their actions and performance enable them to adjust their own ranking to be more in line with their personal preferences. New players are automatically ranked at a middle ground. If you don't know how ranked systems normally work, take a look at things like Matchmaking Rating used in MOBAs (Overwatch's director goes into pretty good detail on their forums about this) to get a better understanding of how those systems actually work before you, not anyone in particular, start spewing your nonsense about how awful they are. Queue times shouldn't be the excuse everyone uses to prevent better systems from being implemented.

[MihaelB]

First, let me start by saying I agree with everything you wrote here.

Second, I feel I need to remind you that we're living in a society where people that work at McDonald's went on strike and demanded they get paid $15/hour, actually got it, and then were surprised AF when companies started rolling out automated kiosks for order placements.

I think is why a number of us also want chocobos to be allowed in duties, our chocobos can be more reliable than a good portion of people we meet.

[alimdia]

I want personal ratings, not tied to DF exclusions, or gaining/losing points from kicks or commendations, just a simple you did X damage and didn't take much damage = SS rank, no need to publicize it, no need to get into the endless argument of parses, just a simple "you did well" or "you didn't do so well" so players know there's room for improvement.