Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[Brian_]

I'd disagree; whether it's the cause or the effect of it, both the design and the (lack of) systems encourage the mindset of wanting to play how you want (regardless of the detriment to the party), being given a pass for not understanding the basics, or having an absurdly high expectation (through the form of vote kicking for "playstyle differences).

Disagree with what? You have a problem in your posting. It's often a bunch of off-point verbal diarrhea. I said the content wasn't a problem, it's the systems surrounding the content that fail it. You just said you disagree but only address the failure of the systems.

For an MMO, I really do not feel that this is the case. People are already going into the game with mindsets, playstyle, and overall attitude of their own, which is going to change in regards to how the game is presented to them (Moba and team games promote more of a competitive attitude, and a higher interaction with their team, positive and negative, for example). What we have right now is a game that is giving you the information that you need to perform your role, but not actually reinforce it through the content. Solo instances hold your hand for the most part, most dungeons are tuned so low (with very few exceptions, which are optional) that people are never really held accountable. It goes back to my first point which I still disagree with you on; design of the game has a factor on why this is a thing. It's a multitude of factors, not just one.

Again, totally misses the point. You are trying to address an issue by looking at the result. I am saying that you need to look at the origin. Just look at the reality that the same content can give birth to very different players. You bring up the truth that different people will have different motivations and goals and look at other gaming genres but you don't connect the dots.

Different types of people will play a genre like an FPS, MOBA, or RTS. But, in those games, people generally play to win. They can be bad, play the game incorrectly, be horribly toxic, but at the end of the day, the people who play purely to grief, throw games, and lose are a tiny minority. By nature of fostering a competitive environment, whether it be through a ladder, ranked play, rating, or just game stats, you unify differing motivations and goals into a singular, upward direction -- victory.

It's no different from managing personnel in a company. Everyone is different in what they want to take away from a job and what they want to put into a job. As the boss of a company, your goal is to somehow nullify that variation in motivation and get people on the same productive page. As some very well known entrepreneurs have said, it's sometimes just easier to only hire A players because you eliminate a lot of variance and headache that comes from trying to unify a team of A players, B players, and C players. That's why statics are a thing in this game.

It doesn't matter if you give someone the information needed to do their job or the content to reinforce it if they don't care. What you need to do is make even the most casual player care just as much about the result as a motivated elite player does.

I played a lot of WoW during Vanilla and BC on the largest PvP server at the time. Everyone -- even casuals -- wanted to be geared. The benefits of that gear were massive. Without gear, you were complete cannon fodder to a geared raider. And, because at the time the best gear was all locked behind a massive PvP grind or the hardest raid content, they had to pursue those means for that goal. So, they either had to become a competent PvPer, a competent raider, or deal with getting ganked , camped, and crapped on by people who were those things. When your gaming experience is reduced to grovelling to your guildmates or friends to save you from hours of merciless t-bagging, it's a little hard to not care.

So turning back to FFXIV, what is the goal? For casual players, the extent of their motivation might be to play virtual barbie with cat girls and cat boys. They see a fully geared A8S cleared player and they don't care. That world has nothing to do with them unless there is a cute glamour they want. With that context, how can you reasonably expect them to be motivated to be a better player? Going back to my previous point, the problem is not the content. FFXIV has some of the most challenging raid content in the industry right now. If players wanted to aspire to a PvE standard, it's there.

So, just like I've already said, this grading system doesn't make people care. Why would a bad player care about clearing content a bit slower and with more toxicity? It doesn't get in the way of their ultimate goal. And, it doesn't make good players care about the team because doing so doesn't benefit their ultimate goal. The goal is creating a system and culture where everyone cares about everyone being better at the game because that is aligned with their shared goal.

[MihaelB]

It's no different from managing personnel in a company. Everyone is different in what they want to take away from a job and what they want to put into a job. As the boss of a company, your goal is to somehow nullify that variation in motivation and get people on the same productive page. As some very well known entrepreneurs have said, it's sometimes just easier to only hire A players because you eliminate a lot of variance and headache that comes from trying to unify a team of A players, B players, and C players. That's why statics are a thing in this game.

Facing the main point first, yes majority are casuals. Yes most won't ever reach the standard of the top raid. Yes there's a unification necessary for the player database but currently there is no unification, there is nothing but continual daily repetition of the negative space you see in this thread. 416 pages don't lie about the type of people you will face in duty finder.

If you manage a company with all staff aspiring for their own goals with one common denominator, that would be money. Money being most akin to a parallel to our game, we all need to work with various people to buy gear, glamours, crafting materials, housing furniture and minions with eso tomes.

If your team is incompetent, you would kick him. If your staff is incompetent, you would give him a warning and if he's not doing any better, you will fire him.
What would the fired staff do? They've been fired and their record if asked, would show they have been fired from their previous job.

Moving back to the money denominator, we live in a class-based ranked society. Do you want more money than the person who cleans your bathrooms? Yes? Ok I'll need to spend time studying in university to hopefully get to the stage to make the money I wish. Do I want even more money from there? Yes? Ok I will study a higher level of education for the managerial position for further progress up the chain and earn more money.

What separates the classes and occupations? The knowledge, experience and skills honed through the years of training.

Paralleling this, time spent on learning your rotations and skills will yield you better numbers and better efficiency in playing your class as you tone your skills necessary for the content provided. The mental capacity is also very apparent from a raider and non raider when I do duties (myself being a non-raider). The rewards in games for their skills is the unique gear they get and the skills they possess.

Moving back a step again back to the class-based real life parallel, would you choose a person with 0 education to help you with your daily work as a manager? Does a manager have the skills to be a janitor?

Moving back further again, yes, this is just a game. Yes this is our leisure activity but that does not mean we all need to be mediocre at what we do with no incentive of improving. No advancement in life or a game will lead to stagnancy and many of us feel that the current system is stagnant.

[Snugglebutt]

Facing the main point first, yes majority are casuals. Yes most won't ever reach the standard of the top raid. Yes there's a unification necessary for the player database but currently there is no unification, there is nothing but continual daily repetition of the negative space you see in this thread. 416 pages don't lie about the type of people you will face in duty finder.

Why are you trying to use that thread as evidence to back up your disdain against less skilled players when a large portion of that thread is about elitists and self proclaimed skilled players ruining runs too. A lot of the posts in that thread are about people who think they are skilled being just as much responsible for creating what you call 'the negative space'. Outside of trolls, botters and RMT the next most negative element of this community is the elitists who look down their noses are casuals and the less skilled players.

They are less patient, less forgiving, less likely to go out of their way to help others unless they have something to personally gain from it (mounts, tombstones, achievements, gil or minions etc), more prone to rage quitting when things do not go the way they wanted or if was a wipe or two. Trying to punish others because they are not as good as them and trying to segregate/split the community between themselves and the people they hate so much because those less skilled are a slight inconvenience to them once in a while.

Your original idea is a prime example where you want to actually punish others by extending their queue times if they are not a high enough grade plus segregate them so you won't have them infecting your zone of self proclaimed skill/awesomeness. Maybe you would like it if SE added a new emoticon/animation which mimics spitting on the casuals who cant click a mouse/button as fast as you while your at it...or maybe you would prefer an auto kick from groups towards anyone who has a disability and because of it struggles more than you do in memorizing rotations or due to their disability they lack the same level of motion control/responsiveness.

[MihaelB]

Why are you trying to use that thread as evidence to back up your disdain against less skilled players when a large portion of that thread is about elitists and self proclaimed skilled players ruining runs too. A lot of the posts in that thread are about people who think they are skilled being just as much responsible for creating what you call 'the negative space'. Outside of trolls, botters and RMT the next most negative element of this community is the elitists who look down their noses are casuals and the less skilled players. They are less patient, less forgiving, less likely to go out of their way to help others unless they have something to personally gain from it (mounts, tombstones, achievements, gil or minions etc), more prone to rage quitting when things do not go the way they wanted or if was a wipe or two. Trying to punish others because they are not as good as them and trying to segregate/split the community between themselves and the people they hate so much because those less skilled are a slight inconvenience to them once in a while.

Your original idea is a prime example where you want to actually punish others by extending their queue times if they are not a high enough grade plus segregate them so you won't have them infecting your zone of self proclaimed skill/awesomeness. Maybe you would like it if SE added a new emoticon/animation which mimics spitting on the casuals who cant click a mouse/button as fast as you while your at it...or maybe you would prefer an auto kick from groups towards anyone who has a disability and because of it struggles more than you do in memorizing rotations or due to their disability they lack the same level of motion control/responsiveness.

Have I ever mentioned I possess disdain towards less skilled players or whether I'm an elitist player? No, don't put labels on me. I'm a non-raider and if this system was to be integrated, I'd be a E-C player due to my latency which I'm well aware of is a problem.

I'm well aware of my limitations as a player and I put in the time to do the research to improve which I am in dire need of. Anyone can look up my stats on parsing websites and see it's below average.

Do I want to play with players who are equal skill to me? Yes.
Do I want someone to be punished for being drunk and high on drugs while playing? Yes.
Do I want someone to be punished for being intentionally idiotic all the time in Duty Finder? Yes.
Do I want to play with people who have so much disabilities and struggles that they can't even push out basic rotations? No.

I'm not a bleeding heart activist with my time I spend in my leisure, I waste it playing a game to have fun. I do not find carrying people who have 0 incentive to improve fun. At least with a grading system, I'll be able to carry myself out if I desire to put in the time to learn something and I'll fall down below if I don't.

If I want to get drunk and high whilst playing this, I would go make a party finder. 'DRUNK BISMARK, COME DRINK WITH US' and if you have an extreme known disability that detriments your game play, maybe you should reach out to people who are willing to help you instead of the assumption of being carried by strangers.

Some people are gifted and will be good without trying and the same goes for the people with disabilities. If you don't possess the natural skill to do something, you need to put in the extra effort to reach those who do.

[RiceisNice]

Disagree with what? You have a problem in your posting. It's often a bunch of off-point verbal diarrhea. I said the content wasn't a problem, it's the systems surrounding the content that fail it. You just said you disagree but only address the failure of the systems.

The design of the content goes in hand with the system (or lack of). If the content allows below-minimal play to be passable, it falls onto the system and community to address it.

So turning back to FFXIV, what is the goal? For casual players, the extent of their motivation might be to play virtual barbie with cat girls and cat boys. They see a fully geared A8S cleared player and they don't care. That world has nothing to do with them unless there is a cute glamour they want. With that context, how can you reasonably expect them to be motivated to be a better player? Going back to my previous point, the problem is not the content. FFXIV has some of the most challenging raid content in the industry right now. If players wanted to aspire to a PvE standard, it's there.

The content I'm referring to is anything that isn't a raid or EX trial (normal mode trials, roulettes and 24 mans), or even side content like aquapolis, diadem or the soon to be palace. I'm really not sure how to word it anymore to get my point across because I feel like I'm repeating myself. The content is designed to allow players to essentially to psuedo-afk and let the burden fall onto the 3, 7 or 23 members of the party. In your example of someone playing only for the glamour, even something like going into a dungeon would require party play to acquire something they want. However as of now, they can do that without any investment into playing the game properly if the party is willing to put up with it. You mentioned that a player doens't have to worry about being better or playing in a toxic environment because it won't get in the way of their goal (acquiring glamour or tomestones) because both the content (they can be carried) and the system (limited kicking/policing) allow for it.

I've lost my train of thought now after being away for the entire day, I'm just gonna end up repeating myself again so I'll bail out.

[Brian_]

The design of the content goes in hand with the system (or lack of). If the content allows below-minimal play to be passable, it falls onto the system and community to address it.

No, it doesn't. What you look for in content is something that looks nice, plays well, and is polished.

Just look at any RTS game. The content is the actual RTS aspect of it. If you just released a game like SC2 with nothing more than the basic game-modes, it'd be a fine game. It's a pretty game, the combat system functions well (aside from complaints stemming from complicated issues like MBS, unit collision and pathing, etc.), and it's pretty bug free. But, it's systems like ladder that utilize the content and changes our approach to it. Suddenly, because winning or losing has a real impact on our ranking, some people will start to care a lot more.

FFXIV's content is fine. It's a sufficient sand-box. We're just not given much of a directive. Take the DF system for example. 90 minutes to clear some crappy dungeon for some loot and monetary rewards (gil, tomestones). That system is incredibly bland when it could be so much more. You say the content is hand-holding and allows for bad play. No, the content doesn't do that. Take that same content, and change the DF system to only give you 10 minutes to complete Sohr Khai. The content didn't change. But, using the system, you've changed our experience with said content completely.

You could easily put in more dungeon objectives. And, best of all, you can release more of them over time to keep people interested in old content. Of course, the content itself needs to leave room for those objectives but like I said earlier, the content is generally a sufficient sand-box. You can have basic objectives like "clear with no deaths," "clear in under 15-minutes," "kill all enemies." Then you could have content specific objectives like "defeat Moglin without allowing any moogles to be revived," "defeat the horse boss with all borders broken," "defeat Hraesvelgr with 7 platforms remaining." The system can easily dictate how we interact with the content.

But, as with what you constantly do, this is getting caught up in the unimportant. The important thing is actually making people care about and want those objectives to begin with. You could lock the rare minion drop, the TT card drop, and the orchestrion roll behind the completion of a certain number of objectives. You could give scaling monetary rewards based on objective completion (more objectives more gil and tomestones). You could give achievements and titles. But, I think there will still be people who just don't care.

[RiceisNice]

No, it doesn't. What you look for in content is something that looks nice, plays well, and is polished.

Now I feel like we're playing a game of semantics so let me clarify; when I say content, I mean anything the game that the player is given and it's functionality and interaction, and the system being something that supplements the content. Even taking your example (where you go to the extreme of lowering it to 10 minutes to significantly change it, again this is something I need to keep pointing out because it really doesn't help bridge anything and just create more rift). The time limit I see it is associated with the dungeon (the content). It's not specific to the dungeon, unless you want to do something like a time attack(which is the aforementioned content under a different mechanic). Or introduce a harder difficulty to dungeons with higher tuned bosses and mechanics(which would then be content utilizing the same system of getting from point A to point B and eliminating bosses).

I'd consider something like dungeon objectives to be the content thats associated with the dungeon, and the functionality of it in general a system. If you can understand that's how I see it, then it's both the system and content that needs addressing, which is what I'm trying to say; We have the system of objectives (even randomized if diadem is anything to look at), but it's incredibly underutilized into a form of content (what kind of objectives do we have, or if we have objectives at all)

You could give scaling monetary rewards based on objective completion (more objectives more gil and tomestones). You could give achievements and titles. But, I think there will still be people who just don't care.

There's the thing; if people don't care for things like achievements, glamour then they should not be placing themselves in that content, espesically if said content is party-play. However despite being a sandbox-design, the gme is still fairly lineiar to how you get to that point in the first place, all of which still requires some form of party play and interaction (which honestly is a given in any mmo). If you wanted to make some sort of progression toward anything (whether it be glamour a clear), you have to be able to make that approach to it, even for something like glamour or minion drops in regards to a dungeon.

[Brian_]

There's the thing; if people don't care for things like achievements, glamour then they should not be placing themselves in that content, espesically if said content is party-play. However despite being a sandbox-design, the gme is still fairly lineiar to how you get to that point in the first place, all of which still requires some form of party play and interaction (which honestly is a given in any mmo). If you wanted to make some sort of progression toward anything (whether it be glamour a clear), you have to be able to make that approach to it, even for something like glamour or minion drops in regards to a dungeon.

So what? We just kick out all the people who are just there to experience the dungeon or progress their MSQ? Sohr Khai is part of the MSQ. A person could easily be doing it and not really be that interested in the glamour or the orchestrion roll.

What I've said time and time again is that people will have their different motivations. The real problem is not the variance in player skill within the content, it's that the system puts people with different motivations into the same content. That's where this conflict comes from. That's why we have this proposal to separate players into tiers.

Someone else said in response to my business analogy that at the end of the day, you can get them on the same page by paying them but this game has no such universally relevant currency. It has nothing that everyone will care about and aim for regardless of if they're a casual or hard-core player. Some players just don't care about gil, tomestones, gear, etc.

So, look at the JP servers. They actually do have that universally relevant "currency." For them, it's the aspect of community that serves as the universal motivator. Nobody wants to be a burden on their group. Everyone wants to do their part. People have pride and a mutual respect. That's enough to push them to research the content, their job and perform at a decent standard.

[Tolmos]

So what? We just kick out all the people who are just there to experience the dungeon or progress their MSQ? Sohr Khai is part of the MSQ. A person could easily be doing it and not really be that interested in the glamour or the orchestrion roll.

I'm not sure what it's like now, but during most of 2.0 I had always wished that MSQ players who were doing the dungeons the first time were always grouped together without anyone else in the dungeon. It used to be TERRIBLE back then for those poor players, with people in the groups being absolute POSs about cutscenes. "Watch them in your inn room later!". Their entitlement was astounding. It got to the point that if a group had a new player, votes to kick would start happening and the poor person running it for the first time would get the boot.