Give Tanks Tank Stance at Level 15

[Alistaire]

Certain levels even an equally-geared dps will outdo a gld...lookin @ you archer.

[Enkonda]

I was under the impression that low-level tanking was supposed to get tanks ready for their job for the near future. I think the experience teaches new tanks that:
a) You will always benefit if your gear is at or above the recommended level of the dungeon
b) How to mend bad situations like losing aggro
c) How to suck it up if you lose aggro
d) How to deal with DPS who can't wait for you to maintain enough aggro before going wild
It feels like giving tank-stance at that level would make it easier and indeed produce more tanks but good tanks?
Really, a Shield Lob -> Flash -> Flash (Another flash if you're feeling festive) -> savage combo should be enough. Then, maybe one final flash before finishing up and moving onto the next target.

[Ilan]

If you do things semi-properly, level sync will take care of the strength disparity. I agree that giving PLDs Shield Oath at 40 is far too late, but even as an early GLA it's not that hard to keep aggro as long as everyone follows target markings and you do a regular aggro combo.

And in how many Dungeons will you have Players who follow the Marks, especially if they are synced? As a Tank Player i can tell you, its maybe 10% who just attack the marked Mobs. For me its fine, but for a unexperienced Player it will be no fun, at least not as GLA/PLD. WAR and DRK are totaly fine.

[Hasrat]

And in how many Dungeons will you have Players who follow the Marks, especially if they are synced? As a Tank Player i can tell you, its maybe 10% who just attack the marked Mobs. For me its fine, but for a unexperienced Player it will be no fun, at least not as GLA/PLD. WAR and DRK are totaly fine.

More than that, how often do players mark anything at all in those low dungeons? There was a thread somewhere around here that brought up how some late-game players don't bother because it's all trash, or they'll even actively attack the wrong mobs because "screw you I know what I'm doing."

Also probably doesn't help that the class quests all seem to expect you to DPS instead of tank, and Hall of Novice isn't much better at training. Early tanking is trial by fire, and I can say from experience that early frustrations can lead to avoidance.

[Judah_Brandt]

OK, so you want a Tank to just not learn anything, be mindless, and be even worse off for Duty Finder later when they might just have to press two buttons instead of one. Get out of here. You're taking niche situations and applying them to majority. It's pointless. For every one instance of a poor party with people who can't play their respective roles, we ignore ten that do so properly. Tanking at low level isn't even hard. The stat difference at level 15 sync is marginal and easily overcome by proper technique. If your ideology is that it's too hard to Tank early so we have less tanks, good. I'd prefer that we have ones that at least know what they are doing having learned from level one up.

[zmandude24]

OK, so you want a Tank to just not learn anything, be mindless, and be even worse off for Duty Finder later when they might just have to press two buttons instead of one. Get out of here. You're taking niche situations and applying them to majority. It's pointless. For every one instance of a poor party with people who can't play their respective roles, we ignore ten that do so properly. Tanking at low level isn't even hard. The stat difference at level 15 sync is marginal and easily overcome by proper technique. If your ideology is that it's too hard to Tank early so we have less tanks, good. I'd prefer that we have ones that at least know what they are doing having learned from level one up.

Early dungeons are SUPPOSED TO BE EASY. The later dungeons are the ones that will challenge players. It's obviously not hard at all for experienced tanks but for the new guy it will bring nothing but frustration for no good reason.

[Huskell]

Just leaving my thoughts here. I'm on the free trial, first class Marauder.

I think they did a good job implementing the Novice lessons, they make you understand some situations and give some lv 15 gear before your first dungeon.

I had no problems tanking the Sastasha, if I keep my pace. The problem is that people like to rush, as a Marauder you spend a lot of TP, and if someone keeps pushing mobs, you will run out of TP in no time. Plus, if DPS like to change targets all the time, so you have to spam Overpower and that spend a lot of TP.

One of my runs the group switched targets before the mob died and they said that the tank should finish the low health mobs to not make the DPS spend big skills on them. To me that's not true, the tank should switch before to get some aggro on the next target...

Anyway, another story: my healer keeps pushing mobs just when the ones we're fighting are dying, creating an infinite loop and making me go out of TP. Shortly after that he let me die because he was too busy pulling mobs, and the party wiped. TL;DR = my fault for not keeping aggro, or so they said.

There's also the people that rush before you can restore TP after fights, pulling mobs like they were the tanks, just to keep running in circles like idiots, making my life harder.

Later I've learned that there's a skill called Flash that makes your life easier on TP, but I need to level Gladiator first, that's what I'll do now.

So I think the problem is not the aggro, it's the high level people that don't care enough if there's a newbie with them and want to do things fast.

[SpookyGhost]

One of my runs the group switched targets before the mob died and they said that the tank should finish the low health mobs to not make the DPS spend big skills on them. To me that's not true, the tank should switch before to get some aggro on the next target...

You are correct - while tanks can, in general, contribute to damage output on stuff, it is the DPS' primary job to make sure stuff dies. While it will cost the DPS slight potency if their damage from that GCD outweighs the remaining health left on the mob, you ensure that the tank and healer are both having an easier time which will give you an overall smoother run. Later down the line this isn't really the case since everyone just AOEs everything to death, but low level when target cycling is a thing it's really just causing unnecessary complications for the party.

Anyway, another story: my healer keeps pushing mobs just when the ones we're fighting are dying, creating an infinite loop and making me go out of TP. Shortly after that he let me die because he was too busy pulling mobs, and the party wiped. TL;DR = my fault for not keeping aggro, or so they said.

This doesn't really happen that often, but it sucks when it does. Overpulling for the tank in low level dungeons when you can't tank them yourself is a pretty bad idea.

There's also the people that rush before you can restore TP after fights, pulling mobs like they were the tanks, just to keep running in circles like idiots, making my life harder.

MRD life can be tough early on if you don't know a few things, so I'd recommend the following to hopefully ease stuff for you:

1. Get Archer to lvl 4 and cross class Raging Strikes. 20% increase to damage dealt for 20s available every 3 minutes. This is good for lowering the amount of Overpower you need to use as well as allowing for higher threat in boss fights.
2. Get Gladiator to 10 for Convalescence, which increases your healing received by 20% for 20s. Just a solid CD and if you choose to take MRD -> WAR to end game then you'll want this then anyway, plus you need to take GLD to 15 to unlock WAR once your MRD hits 30.
3. Finally, optionally, get GLD to 22 for Provoke. This is more of an end game thing, but it basically puts you at exactly +1 enmity over whoever has aggro on the enemy you have targeted. So if you lose aggro, you can use this in conjunction with a combo'd Skull Sunder (or Overpower/Flash if you need it back in 1 GCD) to get the mob back on you. Eventually you'll want this, but you don't need it until around 50-ish, possibly even as late as level cap.

Later I've learned that there's a skill called Flash that makes your life easier on TP, but I need to level Gladiator first, that's what I'll do now.

Yeah, Flash is really good at low level since it's a free GCD to either restore some TP while maintaining aggro or it's something to use when you've bottomed out on TP and need to get AOE aggro.

[Enkonda]

Early dungeons are SUPPOSED TO BE EASY. The later dungeons are the ones that will challenge players. It's obviously not hard at all for experienced tanks but for the new guy it will bring nothing but frustration for no good reason.

Well there're things in place for people who may find it difficult to tank even if one's a casual (as am I). You could join a FC and find people willing to help you get the hang of tanking, you could look over guides on the internet that'll help you, or jump right in, tell people you're new to tanking, and maybe get some nice souls to assist you in your training. Literally, people would leave 'cause of how bad I was at tanking and so, I wouldn't even go near a tank class and soon, I started resenting the people who managed to get the hang of tanking. And now...after about a year...it's really the only class I play. You have to understand, it's a more demanding job than any other job so its learning curve is a bit more steep than say a healer or DPS and thus much more difficult to learn. There're too many guides available for people who may wish to be involved in tanking for people to be saying it needs a tank stance earlier. Practice, practice, and practice.

[Huskell]

Thanks for the advice, really helpful.