Quote Originally Posted by Preypacer View Post
This is gold. Pure gold. The irony is amazing.
Okay, Reiryuu conjures names and numbers clearly off the top of their head to illustrate a point. The names aren't important. The numbers aren't important. The larger point they're making is important.

But did you get that point? No. You didn't. That "whoosh" you might have heard was their actual point as it raced right past you like you were standing still. Why? Because you saw numbers in their post, and your brain went straight into "Numbers!!!" mode.

Consequently, in attempting to refute Reiryuu's remarks, you ended up confirming the actual point being illustrated in their "example".

Bravo.

This is why I describe you people as literally obsessed with numbers.
There is really no need to be so rude. I understood Reiryuu's point completely. The 'point' was that numbers make an insignificant change to the run, where in fact they do make a significant change. I used actual data to prove that point. I am sorry that numbers upset you.

Practicing more self-awareness could help with that.
Eh, again, this is unnecessarily rude.

How quickly you jump to the conclusion that they wouldn't. Why do you feel it necessary to tell them that?
I... didn't jump to that conclusion? I was addressing their post. They said that they are concerned with raiding for reasons of "being a burden" and "being self conscious". One could say, "oh don't worry about that, no one cares how you do!", but that isn't true, I just jumped straight to confirming what they are saying. Yes, taking your performance seriously is important, and if that makes you feel self conscious, then that would be a problem.

See, this is the condescending, passive-aggressive, arrogant crap people like you spew out on a regular basis - and then you wonder why people react so negatively to the idea of SE implementing official parsers. It's the fear of people like you getting your hands on them.
You mean, unlike the direct condescending, aggressive arrogant post that you just wrote up?

I am sorry to Reiyruu if (s)he felt I was being passive aggressive. I thought we were just having an intelligent discussion with opposing view points. I actually enjoyed our back and forth.

Reiyruu can obviously speak for themselves (and may have by this post), but I'd wager the problem isn't that they wouldn't take their performance seriously, your implication to the contrary notwithstanding. It's that they wouldn't take their performance seriously enough *for you* and others who reduce FFXIV to a number crunching simulator.
Again, not what I said.

If I were to guess, it's that even if they were satisfied with their performance, and felt that they worked well with the team, dealt with the mechanics well, and that the raid was cleared, people like you would likely be sitting there, poring over post-fight parser data saying, "tut tut.. Nope... Reiryuu, you weren't pulling your weight there. You were clearly 253.7 dps too low compared to the other DPS. That means the raid took us 3% longer to complete than it should have, and you were being carried. You need to work on that." You'd suck the fun right out of playing.
Yes, this is what I do (though, not nearly as rudely as you are suggesting). I am a raid leader, and finding ways to improve my team is part of what I do. I read through our FFLogs encounter and pick out things and give advice to my team. I had a chat with my Ninja not long ago and let him know that his Active DPS was a bit low, and chatted back and forth with him about why that may be the case. Yesterday, he asked what his active DPS was and it was really good - and he was quite pleased. This is the relationship we have set up.

And from what you've said in your post here,and what I've seen others in this thread say, I have 0.001% trouble believing a scenario just like that would play out. Reiryuu wouldn have mere moments to enjoy their victory before they'd be getting lectured on their "sub-par" performance by people for whom FFXIV is all about number crunching and percentages. Heaven forbid they put pure fun ahead of "optimal rotations and dps output at all times". Heaven forbid they "settle" with merely doing "well enough" to clear the content.
Yeah, this isn't true at all, but you can feel free to assume I am the devil - if you wish.

If you people could keep the high expectations and obsession over numbers and %'s of numbers to yourselves, I doubt many would care. The problem is you can't. It's impossible. It's why so many on your side of the fence are vocally against having personal parsers that only show your own info. Because it's not your own info you're ultimtely concerned about - it's everyone else's. You're worried how everyone else is playing. You're worried if they're "holding you back". You're worried about if "you're carrying them" - which in itself is another amazingly arrogant stance.
I am against a personal parser, because an individual value is not very helpful. If I said to you, "you did 1000 DPS". You would ask... "is that good?". Having a group parser puts your number in line with other people, and you'll see that you did 1000 and everyone else did under 600. Great job! Or maybe you'll see you did 1000 and everyone else had over 2k, OK something is wrong. See how those other numbers make that 1000 value different?

That you people preach "working well as a team" or "supporting your team members", and then turn around and completely dismiss others' efforts simply because they didn't meet your personal standards, is some of the most egregious hypocrisy I've seen in a MMO community. They may have been putting their all into it, playing at their maximum ability at that time, and people like you would just come back with dismissive crap like what you posted above... assuming they're not taking their performance seriously, or declaring that they were carried. And then you wonder why people react so negatively.
I believe working well as a team is very important. However, if people do not take working as a team seriously, I feel there is no hypocrisy in being disappointed with them. It's not really personal standards, as opposed to potential. A "X" job has potential "Y". When one does significantly worse than their potential, then something is wrong. More than likely, they are just unaware that they are below that potential, and that is where a parser could be helpful.

And if you're sitting there saying "No.. no.. .thats not it at all. No one's saying any of that", then I would ask you to go back through this thread, including your own posts - nevermind the numerous others covering similar ground - and actually read some of the remarks made by people on your side of the fence with a truly open mind, unclouded by your own biases and obsession over numbers. You people express just that kind of attitude, implicitly and explicitly, in post after post.
To be frank, I am sitting here thinking - This person is one of the rudest and most ignorant people I have ever had the displeasure of responding to on this forum. For some reason they have a significant issue with reading comprehension and a failure to understand basic arithmetic. Perhaps they should spend more time reading what people are saying, instead of making a large amount of incorrect assumptions about others.

You mean a team of people who can actually enjoy the game, take the wipes in stride and keep working at it, all the while remembering it's a game, and the point is to have fun and not stress over numbers? That's actually wonderful advice. I realize that probably makes it entirely accidental coming from you, as having fun for fun's sake, numbers be damned, is probably an alien concept to you - but it's actually the only constructive thing you've said in that entire post.
This is precisely what i meant. Find people who have the same goals, values and skill level as your own. If you want to go in without a parser, then find 7 others who feel the same way. It's only going to create conflict if people go into the group with different expectations. There are plenty of people like Reiyruu who would love to raid, but have similar concerns. I have no doubt (s)he could find a fun and casual group to run with. I think (s)he would enjoy that a lot more than pugging through DF and PF.

Holy crap if you people could see yourselves and your attitudes the way others do.
Back at you?