Can we have option to VK a player because they are below a reasonable skill level?

[Archaell]

But you don't have to play with everyone, there is PF for people who can't stand people who doesn't hold up to their pace.

Why can't the "less commited players" use PF then to make DF a better place? :3

As it is now Duty Finder is working, yes, but it is also far from being perfect. A simple option to choose between "slow and easy" and "serious play" would make a huge difference. The only reason why having all the players in one pool is better are the Q times... but then we could just allow people to choose both options and just tell them what is the purpose of the run at the start.

Mixing players who do care about their performance with players who do not care is DF flaw that should be fixed.

[Lunavi]

Why can't the "less commited players" use PF then to make DF a better place? :3

As it is now Duty Finder is working, yes, but it is also far from being perfect. A simple option to choose between "slow and easy" and "serious play" would make a huge difference. The only reason why having all the players in one pool is better are the Q times... but then we could just allow people to choose both options and just tell them what is the purpose of the run at the start.

Mixing players who do care about their performance with players who do not care is DF flaw that should be fixed.

What is your suggestion to make DF able to do that? I don't understand why you want to run in DF when your needs are clearly those of one who should want to run in PF. PF can, in the long run, filter people out better than any program ever could.

[LadyVal]

Why can't the "less commited players" use PF then to make DF a better place? :3

As it is now Duty Finder is working, yes, but it is also far from being perfect. A simple option to choose between "slow and easy" and "serious play" would make a huge difference. The only reason why having all the players in one pool is better are the Q times... but then we could just allow people to choose both options and just tell them what is the purpose of the run at the start.

Mixing players who do care about their performance with players who do not care is DF flaw that should be fixed.

People select to be partied with players who don't even speak the same languages so that they can get shorter queue times. Once somebody sees that queuing for "slow and easy" means a 30 minute queue compared to a "serious play" queue time of 5 minutes, you can guess which queue people will use. And then will still complain about the same issues that are being complained about right now.

[Archaell]

People select to be partied with players who don't even speak the same languages so that they can get shorter queue times. Once somebody sees that queuing for "slow and easy" means a 30 minute queue compared to a "serious play" queue time of 5 minutes, you can guess which queue people will use. And then will still complain about the same issues that are being complained about right now.

I actually do expect that. The difference is that then there would be no excuse to "underperform" in the "serious play" pool and vote kicking for performance would be justified.

What is your suggestion to make DF able to do that? I don't understand why you want to run in DF when your needs are clearly those of one who should want to run in PF. PF can, in the long run, filter people out better than any program ever could.

My view point is that players should not be punished - forced to use PF - for playing the game optimally and wanting their team to do the same. Hopping in DF and expecting others to do your job is basically passive griefing. DF means to avoid that are in this state really pitiful - you can vote kick them, leave, or vote abandon. Vote kicking just sends the player to a different group to cause harm while wasting group's time waiting for a new member, leaving gives you penalty and abandoning is also kind of penalty. Some way to avoid being matched with the player in the first place would be much better solution.

We have SSS now, which is lacking, but it could be expanded to unlock the "serious mode" for DF. Require players to beat the dungeon first, then unlock it in SSS for each job, make the aoe/tanking/healing versions and you made the "serious" Q much better already.

[LadyVal]

My view point is that players should not be punished - forced to use PF - for playing the game optimally and wanting their team to do the same. Hopping in DF and expecting others to do your job is basically passive griefing.

Mmm I would disagree, PF is not a punishment. Anyone who expects anything other than "I am going to be put with an entirely random player" should probably use PF. That goes for those who want speed runs, and those who expect their hands to be held entirely. You don't get any special treatment just because you are highly concerned with your efficiency. On the other hand, nor do those who expect to be carried. When anybody uses DF they are signing up for the luck of the draw.

With your ideas I believe it would ultimately drive people away from the game because everyone would end up in these "serious mode" runs and nobody would be left to help the new players (both casual and hardcore) to clear the content they need. Because let's face it most people won't go into PF thinking "how can I help someone else" but they end up in DF with someone new and that new person gets the clear.

It really sounds like you just need to learn how to tolerate/respect people with different levels of skill than your own. If you replace your terms for "casual" and "efficient" with "colored" and "white" your ideas sound a whole lot like actual ideas that were used in the US in the 1950s.

[Seraphix2407]

....

Where do I try to educate people? Where do I say I NEED speed runs. If you want, you can see me stream everyday and everytime I don't get a speed run, I don't really care. I don't excpect speed runs each time when I enter a dungeon or having double casters so it goes quicker, far from that. I never even implied of having people needing to be on my ''skill level''. I'm not great I just find myself with just decent skill, which is the common sense of playing. Don't get me wrong, not trying to attack you, but before you say things I never said you better have a reason for it.

There is a BIG difference playing an icemage and doing somewhat a decent way of playing. What I'm trying to say is, if you gonna keep play icemage, do you think its optimal and somewhat respectful towards the group you are in? Highly doubt it, because as you said, you are well aware there are trolls and some doesn't have a clue how to teamplay. However being an icemage or ignore combos isn't just about teamplay, it's more about thinking about the rest in the group, rather than being selfish about it. But yes I'm waiting till you find where I say I need speedruns or try to educate people how to play perfect, until then, have a good one!

Edit: Before you gonna reply, as long a person has common sense, NO need to be perfect in dungeons and whatsoever, but when you play at a certain lvl which is almost like trolling and you still go around thinking it's fine, which I find totally wrong. If was part of a group and I knew I was bad for them, I wouldn't bother, this is excactly what many in this thread have mentioned, the lack of respect from players. How excactly are you respecting another player if you gonna do your own little thing and ignore it's wrong? This isn't excactly less of asshole move than people talking down on people, just saying.

[Archaell]

I am arguing for more options when it comes to DF and clearly stated rules for them. Right now it is impossible to enforce anything in DF because there are no guidelines to follow. The problem with special treatment is that while you can't force better performance from others you can force others to carry you so the players who are doing good job are always at disadvantage. What is wrong with matching folks with similar mindset together?

Nobody would be forced to help new players. There would still be players helping, look at how many "help me carry a friend" PFs are up. There is also the mentor roulette and bonus. People would be still helping so I don't see the issue here. Would the first time clears have longer wait times or require more effort? Well that is quite possible. But the "elitists" would be out of the Q, which could actually improve the enjoyment for the new players.

I tolerate many things, the only people I kick are offline - because I am soft. It's my weakness and I accept it, yet that is exactly the reason why I could use the features mentioned to make me less exploitable. I could probably try to practice being more toxic... but in all honesty that is not something I would like to do.

If you replace your terms for "casual" and "efficient" with "colored" and "white" your ideas sound a whole lot like actual ideas that were used in the US in the 1950s.

So since when does trying hard allow you to change skin colors exactly? :P With performance there is still the possibility (and quite easy) of moving up to decent level of skill from the bottomless pit of underperformance.

[LadyVal]

I am arguing for more options when it comes to DF and clearly stated rules for them. Right now it is impossible to enforce anything in DF because there are no guidelines to follow. The problem with special treatment is that while you can't force better performance from others you can force others to carry you so the players who are doing good job are always at disadvantage. What is wrong with matching folks with similar mindset together?

Nobody would be forced to help new players. There would still be players helping, look at how many "help me carry a friend" PFs are up. There is also the mentor roulette and bonus. People would be still helping so I don't see the issue here. Would the first time clears have longer wait times or require more effort? Well that is quite possible. But the "elitists" would be out of the Q, which could actually improve the enjoyment for the new players.

I tolerate many things, the only people I kick are offline - because I am soft. It's my weakness and I accept it, yet that is exactly the reason why I could use the features mentioned to make me less exploitable. I could probably try to practice being more toxic... but in all honesty that is not something I would like to do.



So since when does trying hard allow you to change skin colors exactly? :P With performance there is still the possibility (and quite easy) of moving up to decent level of skill from the bottomless pit of underperformance.

I didn't say anyone has special treatment. Everyone in DF is paired with random people, and everyone is subject to the same luck. DF isn't designed to have anything enforced. That's the whole point. You go to DF when you need roles filled quickly, filled by other people who are in the same need. That's it. It's not about making the run smooth for person A, person B, or person C. It's a group of people formed because they didn't have an easier option. If you want it to be smooth then it's up to all members of the party to communicate, like adults, and come to a compromise. Nobody should be segregated and told "You really aren't very good so you should only play with others who aren't very good." That would be as stupid as me petitioning to not be queued alongside those with ugly glamours. And yeah with glamours someone may think they look great while I think they look horrible, and it's the same with skill; just because you think someone is too casual, does not mean they think they are too casual. So they would still queue with you. Which, still, doesn't give you the right to remove them from a run because you two disagree on their skill level.

I am not saying anyone WOULD be forced to help new players. I am saying as the system is now, sometimes, you DO get forced into helping new players. Which is a good thing. You would diminish that possibility happening, in an exclusive "pre-cleared queue" which is a bad thing. If someone is new they should be able to DF something to have it cleared, and have a reasonable queue time. Hell even if someone is bad at the game they deserve a decent queue. The elitist comment is neither here nor there because leaving DF as it is now, or changing it to your idea, or changing it to anyone else's idea, won't keep negative people out of the DF. And the basis of your argument is a bit elitist in itself because it appears you are presenting the idea of "But I have already cleared this dungeon so I really shouldn't have to waste my time with those who aren't as practiced as me."

So, why do you want a system that protects you from yourself instead of bettering the community? You don't need to be toxic, you just need to communicate. I realize effort doesn't change skin color but the underlying mindset is the exact same: "I don't understand how to confront someone different than what I know so the systems should be in place should keep them away from me... but make it a little better for me because I view that I am the superior and they are the inferior." Like instead of petitioning for the system to make us all "play with similar people" maybe like, idk, become one of the people who asks someone "Hey are you new?" or maybe, idk, "Hey did you know you don't have to spam that move?" or "Could you please not use HoTs so often? It's making it hard for me to hold aggro." If someone mouths off to you if you ask, then kick them. If they are ignorant, teach them.

If you just want to keep people away from you so you don't feel taken advantage of, then stand up for yourself and don't let people exploit you. Don't just ask the entire system to essentially force players to segregate themselves into similar groups just because you don't know how to respectfully confront a stranger.

[Archaell]

...

My hope is that if there would be the option for more serious DF play players would be either contributing enough or at least more open-minded to tips and suggestions.

Helping the community is unfortunately impossible when the players refuse to be helped. You get mostly ignored, shouted at or in the more hilarious cases vote kicked by the white knights. The safe way of DFing is treating the others like bots, because anything beyond "hi and bye" is potentially dangerous thing to say. So you just suck it up, carry them through the run and leave with your tomes. Then the person becomes a problem for their next group. It is quite sad, but nothing can be done about it.

Luckily I can usually do the content with people from my FC or linkshells... but still can't help it that DF seems like it could have been working better.

[MeiUshu]

[QUOTE=Seraphix2407;3703819][B]QUOTE]

I can safely say I have never ever told a player to change their playstyle because I dont like how they play, at most I have asked them for a specific reason for a specific boss if they could not not use a specific skill ,if they dont want to no problem, life goes on as usual.

And I can safely tell you straight that I have never thrown out a player for not playing how everybody think it should be played, I have kicked players for insulting others that is true, and I even left parties because I felt the kick was uncalled for, more often then I can say. I went through The Vault wiht a healer that had no job class quests done from Lvl 50 onwards none of them, we tried up to the end of the dungeon and we didnt make it of course. I have been with parties where the tank had lvl gears 10 when the dungeon is lvl 40, I have played with healers that didnt have swiftcast and were lvl 60 and admitted NOT to want it as they had no use of it and was a useless skill. I have played with tanks that never used CDs, with healers that never healed, with DPS that were standing there and watching others doing the work, I have never kicked them, my answer has always been NO, other then disconnect and insult obviously.

If highly skilled players lvl 60 wants to tank when I am lvl 30, and rip aggro off me because constantly purposedly doing all they can for forbidding a player to play, so be it, I will go DPS and let them tank, because well why to fight ? right ? strangely enough I have been kicked for not fighting for aggro when they all wanted speed runs in a low level roulette where clearly I wasnt able to compete with them.

So yeah, I can look at myself in a Mirror and tell you straight thatyes if I can do it, others can too, but the thing is most dont want to, they have that sense of I am Superior thing