Can we have option to VK a player because they are below a reasonable skill level?

[Archaell]

People select to be partied with players who don't even speak the same languages so that they can get shorter queue times. Once somebody sees that queuing for "slow and easy" means a 30 minute queue compared to a "serious play" queue time of 5 minutes, you can guess which queue people will use. And then will still complain about the same issues that are being complained about right now.

I actually do expect that. The difference is that then there would be no excuse to "underperform" in the "serious play" pool and vote kicking for performance would be justified.

What is your suggestion to make DF able to do that? I don't understand why you want to run in DF when your needs are clearly those of one who should want to run in PF. PF can, in the long run, filter people out better than any program ever could.

My view point is that players should not be punished - forced to use PF - for playing the game optimally and wanting their team to do the same. Hopping in DF and expecting others to do your job is basically passive griefing. DF means to avoid that are in this state really pitiful - you can vote kick them, leave, or vote abandon. Vote kicking just sends the player to a different group to cause harm while wasting group's time waiting for a new member, leaving gives you penalty and abandoning is also kind of penalty. Some way to avoid being matched with the player in the first place would be much better solution.

We have SSS now, which is lacking, but it could be expanded to unlock the "serious mode" for DF. Require players to beat the dungeon first, then unlock it in SSS for each job, make the aoe/tanking/healing versions and you made the "serious" Q much better already.

[LadyVal]

My view point is that players should not be punished - forced to use PF - for playing the game optimally and wanting their team to do the same. Hopping in DF and expecting others to do your job is basically passive griefing.

Mmm I would disagree, PF is not a punishment. Anyone who expects anything other than "I am going to be put with an entirely random player" should probably use PF. That goes for those who want speed runs, and those who expect their hands to be held entirely. You don't get any special treatment just because you are highly concerned with your efficiency. On the other hand, nor do those who expect to be carried. When anybody uses DF they are signing up for the luck of the draw.

With your ideas I believe it would ultimately drive people away from the game because everyone would end up in these "serious mode" runs and nobody would be left to help the new players (both casual and hardcore) to clear the content they need. Because let's face it most people won't go into PF thinking "how can I help someone else" but they end up in DF with someone new and that new person gets the clear.

It really sounds like you just need to learn how to tolerate/respect people with different levels of skill than your own. If you replace your terms for "casual" and "efficient" with "colored" and "white" your ideas sound a whole lot like actual ideas that were used in the US in the 1950s.

[Archaell]

I am arguing for more options when it comes to DF and clearly stated rules for them. Right now it is impossible to enforce anything in DF because there are no guidelines to follow. The problem with special treatment is that while you can't force better performance from others you can force others to carry you so the players who are doing good job are always at disadvantage. What is wrong with matching folks with similar mindset together?

Nobody would be forced to help new players. There would still be players helping, look at how many "help me carry a friend" PFs are up. There is also the mentor roulette and bonus. People would be still helping so I don't see the issue here. Would the first time clears have longer wait times or require more effort? Well that is quite possible. But the "elitists" would be out of the Q, which could actually improve the enjoyment for the new players.

I tolerate many things, the only people I kick are offline - because I am soft. It's my weakness and I accept it, yet that is exactly the reason why I could use the features mentioned to make me less exploitable. I could probably try to practice being more toxic... but in all honesty that is not something I would like to do.

If you replace your terms for "casual" and "efficient" with "colored" and "white" your ideas sound a whole lot like actual ideas that were used in the US in the 1950s.

So since when does trying hard allow you to change skin colors exactly? :P With performance there is still the possibility (and quite easy) of moving up to decent level of skill from the bottomless pit of underperformance.

[LadyVal]

I am arguing for more options when it comes to DF and clearly stated rules for them. Right now it is impossible to enforce anything in DF because there are no guidelines to follow. The problem with special treatment is that while you can't force better performance from others you can force others to carry you so the players who are doing good job are always at disadvantage. What is wrong with matching folks with similar mindset together?

Nobody would be forced to help new players. There would still be players helping, look at how many "help me carry a friend" PFs are up. There is also the mentor roulette and bonus. People would be still helping so I don't see the issue here. Would the first time clears have longer wait times or require more effort? Well that is quite possible. But the "elitists" would be out of the Q, which could actually improve the enjoyment for the new players.

I tolerate many things, the only people I kick are offline - because I am soft. It's my weakness and I accept it, yet that is exactly the reason why I could use the features mentioned to make me less exploitable. I could probably try to practice being more toxic... but in all honesty that is not something I would like to do.



So since when does trying hard allow you to change skin colors exactly? :P With performance there is still the possibility (and quite easy) of moving up to decent level of skill from the bottomless pit of underperformance.

I didn't say anyone has special treatment. Everyone in DF is paired with random people, and everyone is subject to the same luck. DF isn't designed to have anything enforced. That's the whole point. You go to DF when you need roles filled quickly, filled by other people who are in the same need. That's it. It's not about making the run smooth for person A, person B, or person C. It's a group of people formed because they didn't have an easier option. If you want it to be smooth then it's up to all members of the party to communicate, like adults, and come to a compromise. Nobody should be segregated and told "You really aren't very good so you should only play with others who aren't very good." That would be as stupid as me petitioning to not be queued alongside those with ugly glamours. And yeah with glamours someone may think they look great while I think they look horrible, and it's the same with skill; just because you think someone is too casual, does not mean they think they are too casual. So they would still queue with you. Which, still, doesn't give you the right to remove them from a run because you two disagree on their skill level.

I am not saying anyone WOULD be forced to help new players. I am saying as the system is now, sometimes, you DO get forced into helping new players. Which is a good thing. You would diminish that possibility happening, in an exclusive "pre-cleared queue" which is a bad thing. If someone is new they should be able to DF something to have it cleared, and have a reasonable queue time. Hell even if someone is bad at the game they deserve a decent queue. The elitist comment is neither here nor there because leaving DF as it is now, or changing it to your idea, or changing it to anyone else's idea, won't keep negative people out of the DF. And the basis of your argument is a bit elitist in itself because it appears you are presenting the idea of "But I have already cleared this dungeon so I really shouldn't have to waste my time with those who aren't as practiced as me."

So, why do you want a system that protects you from yourself instead of bettering the community? You don't need to be toxic, you just need to communicate. I realize effort doesn't change skin color but the underlying mindset is the exact same: "I don't understand how to confront someone different than what I know so the systems should be in place should keep them away from me... but make it a little better for me because I view that I am the superior and they are the inferior." Like instead of petitioning for the system to make us all "play with similar people" maybe like, idk, become one of the people who asks someone "Hey are you new?" or maybe, idk, "Hey did you know you don't have to spam that move?" or "Could you please not use HoTs so often? It's making it hard for me to hold aggro." If someone mouths off to you if you ask, then kick them. If they are ignorant, teach them.

If you just want to keep people away from you so you don't feel taken advantage of, then stand up for yourself and don't let people exploit you. Don't just ask the entire system to essentially force players to segregate themselves into similar groups just because you don't know how to respectfully confront a stranger.

[Lunavi]

My view point is that players should not be punished - forced to use PF - for playing the game optimally and wanting their team to do the same. Hopping in DF and expecting others to do your job is basically passive griefing. DF means to avoid that are in this state really pitiful - you can vote kick them, leave, or vote abandon. Vote kicking just sends the player to a different group to cause harm while wasting group's time waiting for a new member, leaving gives you penalty and abandoning is also kind of penalty. Some way to avoid being matched with the player in the first place would be much better solution.

No one punishes you for playing the game optimally, nor wanting top tier players. However, SE can't do the impossible. What you ask for is a system that pairs you up with people with equal skill level to yourself all the time. Note that I do not say equal or above, because with your mindset you should not waste the time of people who are more skilled than yourself. With this system queuetimes could get ridiculously high, maybe even tanks like yourself would get to taste some queuetime?

You seem unable to grasp the purpose DF and PF respectively exists to serve in the game. DF is there to make you and any other player able to quickly (oh well, relatively) and without much hazzle enter a dungeon group on the go to finish the stuff they need to finih. This is also why the duty roulette was created to keep old and skilled players in outdated content so that players wouldn't be faced with 300+ minute queuetimes (yes, I saw that in 2.0 before the Daily Roulette system was created) while PF is meant to be used as a tool to find players with a specific playstyle and skill-level to run content with. You would save yourself and many other much frustraition if you started to use these systems as they were intended to be used and respect that other people do likewise. Heck, back when I played in 2.1-2.2 it wasn't uncommon at all that people used PF to create SR tomefarm parties and I doubt that is a practice that have died out (capping weekly tomes in about an hour was awesome I can tell you).

There is one solution to all of your problem, and I repeat, DO NOT USE DUTY FINDER!

[Archaell]

There is one solution to all of your problem, and I repeat, DO NOT USE DUTY FINDER!

I am trying to avoid it as much as possible - don't worry!

The main purpose of Duty Finder is to find people beyond your server to do content with. Even it's current state could be changed, at least theoretically. Imagine that starting tomorrow it would be place only for the experience people. It is not likely, but the tiny possibility exists.

Being matched with players of equal skill sounds nice, but you are right - not so plausible due to size of the playerbase. Nobody wants that tho. The main issue with these topics is that posters try to push things to extreme. Nobody wants the more serious roulette to be place only for people who can do 95% of their job's potential. 80% would be more than enough as long as they try to improve. I can tell you that there are people who do less than 50%, which makes it clear they do other things while playing the game. Why should we be stuck carrying them for their own selfish needs? In team based game it is natural to expect the whole team to be commited to the goal - which in this case is making the duty as smooth and quick as possible so that we can enjoy the parts of the game which are fun.

[LadyVal]

In team based game it is natural to expect the whole team to be commited to the goal - which in this case is making the duty as smooth and quick as possible so that we can enjoy the parts of the game which are fun.

Again, you're not understanding that the goal in DF is the clear. The rest is decided after the team is assembled and inside the instance.

I am curious though, why you didn't respond to Lunavi's question... what would you do if this system were put in place and, surprise, everyone else thinks you're not trying, so you end up lumped into the "not trying" queue and kicked from the "trying" queue? I mean, to them, it's a legitimate kick because to 3/7 other people, you suck, so I hope you have a lengthy response about how you would graciously accept the kick and not make excuses about how you actually tried... because by your logic when you're in the part of the group assuming someone else is actively not trying (as opposed to struggling and failing) then that is perfectly acceptable.

[Archaell]

...

The point of DF is clear. I do understand that. The strategies to achieve said clear are multiple. Unfortunately it is highly unlikely to get 4 people with similar mindset in one group. If the players could go left for slow and easy run or right for more serious run then it would be more likely to match them together. Even if some players would not use it correctly it would improve the situation.

I did not respond to Lunavi's question, because it felt like taunting. Your question seems like taunting too... but alright I am going to answer it.

There are many players better than me so it is only logical that in some cases they could judge my performance lacking and kick me out. I would not cry about that, I might get slightly annoyed of course, I might rage in FC chat if they did even worse job than I did, but that would be it. This can happen even now so I am willing to live with that.

It might seem that I want to keep worse players than I am away from my Qs, but that is not entirely accurate. All I want are team members that focus on the game instead of their TV and are willing to listen to advice. I find it really unfair when 3 players try their best and the last one is just using abilities randomly to make it look like they are doing something while eating lunch etc. Do you think it is fair? It certainly is common and the people even admit it when asked... at least they are honest I guess.

[LadyVal]

Do you think it is fair? It certainly is common and the people even admit it when asked... at least they are honest I guess.

No, I do not think it is fair. I just simply do not let it upset me because I have more important things to expend my energy and emotions on than that one player in that one DF run of that one expert roulette I did sometime last week. It's largely just... not a big deal.

It's not your responsibility to carry every single person that doesn't want to press more than one button, either. The solution isn't just to have the rules eliminate everyone you perceive that way from your game experience, the solution is to either make them better enough to carry their own weight (even if it's just to finish one boss fight), or excuse yourself if you are really that offended. All you have to do is take a minute to ask someone respectfully about whatever issue you are perceiving. If they snap at you or insult you, kick them. If they are struggling, help them. If they ignore you, ask the rest of the team what they want to do. But if you don't want to ask them what's going on, and you are still so irritated about how badly they play, then it's time to bow out and make your own party or hope you have better luck in your next run. You have to be willing to fix your own unhappiness, not just ask someone else to change the rules to suit your happiness.