Can we have option to VK a player because they are below a reasonable skill level?

[LadyVal]

My view point is that players should not be punished - forced to use PF - for playing the game optimally and wanting their team to do the same. Hopping in DF and expecting others to do your job is basically passive griefing.

Mmm I would disagree, PF is not a punishment. Anyone who expects anything other than "I am going to be put with an entirely random player" should probably use PF. That goes for those who want speed runs, and those who expect their hands to be held entirely. You don't get any special treatment just because you are highly concerned with your efficiency. On the other hand, nor do those who expect to be carried. When anybody uses DF they are signing up for the luck of the draw.

With your ideas I believe it would ultimately drive people away from the game because everyone would end up in these "serious mode" runs and nobody would be left to help the new players (both casual and hardcore) to clear the content they need. Because let's face it most people won't go into PF thinking "how can I help someone else" but they end up in DF with someone new and that new person gets the clear.

It really sounds like you just need to learn how to tolerate/respect people with different levels of skill than your own. If you replace your terms for "casual" and "efficient" with "colored" and "white" your ideas sound a whole lot like actual ideas that were used in the US in the 1950s.

[Archaell]

I am arguing for more options when it comes to DF and clearly stated rules for them. Right now it is impossible to enforce anything in DF because there are no guidelines to follow. The problem with special treatment is that while you can't force better performance from others you can force others to carry you so the players who are doing good job are always at disadvantage. What is wrong with matching folks with similar mindset together?

Nobody would be forced to help new players. There would still be players helping, look at how many "help me carry a friend" PFs are up. There is also the mentor roulette and bonus. People would be still helping so I don't see the issue here. Would the first time clears have longer wait times or require more effort? Well that is quite possible. But the "elitists" would be out of the Q, which could actually improve the enjoyment for the new players.

I tolerate many things, the only people I kick are offline - because I am soft. It's my weakness and I accept it, yet that is exactly the reason why I could use the features mentioned to make me less exploitable. I could probably try to practice being more toxic... but in all honesty that is not something I would like to do.

If you replace your terms for "casual" and "efficient" with "colored" and "white" your ideas sound a whole lot like actual ideas that were used in the US in the 1950s.

So since when does trying hard allow you to change skin colors exactly? :P With performance there is still the possibility (and quite easy) of moving up to decent level of skill from the bottomless pit of underperformance.

[LadyVal]

I am arguing for more options when it comes to DF and clearly stated rules for them. Right now it is impossible to enforce anything in DF because there are no guidelines to follow. The problem with special treatment is that while you can't force better performance from others you can force others to carry you so the players who are doing good job are always at disadvantage. What is wrong with matching folks with similar mindset together?

Nobody would be forced to help new players. There would still be players helping, look at how many "help me carry a friend" PFs are up. There is also the mentor roulette and bonus. People would be still helping so I don't see the issue here. Would the first time clears have longer wait times or require more effort? Well that is quite possible. But the "elitists" would be out of the Q, which could actually improve the enjoyment for the new players.

I tolerate many things, the only people I kick are offline - because I am soft. It's my weakness and I accept it, yet that is exactly the reason why I could use the features mentioned to make me less exploitable. I could probably try to practice being more toxic... but in all honesty that is not something I would like to do.



So since when does trying hard allow you to change skin colors exactly? :P With performance there is still the possibility (and quite easy) of moving up to decent level of skill from the bottomless pit of underperformance.

I didn't say anyone has special treatment. Everyone in DF is paired with random people, and everyone is subject to the same luck. DF isn't designed to have anything enforced. That's the whole point. You go to DF when you need roles filled quickly, filled by other people who are in the same need. That's it. It's not about making the run smooth for person A, person B, or person C. It's a group of people formed because they didn't have an easier option. If you want it to be smooth then it's up to all members of the party to communicate, like adults, and come to a compromise. Nobody should be segregated and told "You really aren't very good so you should only play with others who aren't very good." That would be as stupid as me petitioning to not be queued alongside those with ugly glamours. And yeah with glamours someone may think they look great while I think they look horrible, and it's the same with skill; just because you think someone is too casual, does not mean they think they are too casual. So they would still queue with you. Which, still, doesn't give you the right to remove them from a run because you two disagree on their skill level.

I am not saying anyone WOULD be forced to help new players. I am saying as the system is now, sometimes, you DO get forced into helping new players. Which is a good thing. You would diminish that possibility happening, in an exclusive "pre-cleared queue" which is a bad thing. If someone is new they should be able to DF something to have it cleared, and have a reasonable queue time. Hell even if someone is bad at the game they deserve a decent queue. The elitist comment is neither here nor there because leaving DF as it is now, or changing it to your idea, or changing it to anyone else's idea, won't keep negative people out of the DF. And the basis of your argument is a bit elitist in itself because it appears you are presenting the idea of "But I have already cleared this dungeon so I really shouldn't have to waste my time with those who aren't as practiced as me."

So, why do you want a system that protects you from yourself instead of bettering the community? You don't need to be toxic, you just need to communicate. I realize effort doesn't change skin color but the underlying mindset is the exact same: "I don't understand how to confront someone different than what I know so the systems should be in place should keep them away from me... but make it a little better for me because I view that I am the superior and they are the inferior." Like instead of petitioning for the system to make us all "play with similar people" maybe like, idk, become one of the people who asks someone "Hey are you new?" or maybe, idk, "Hey did you know you don't have to spam that move?" or "Could you please not use HoTs so often? It's making it hard for me to hold aggro." If someone mouths off to you if you ask, then kick them. If they are ignorant, teach them.

If you just want to keep people away from you so you don't feel taken advantage of, then stand up for yourself and don't let people exploit you. Don't just ask the entire system to essentially force players to segregate themselves into similar groups just because you don't know how to respectfully confront a stranger.