So this does not turn into a big argument, I will explain the scenario that I encountered. I joined a DF and the healer wiped us, I could see they were struggling so I explained the fight to them and they wiped us again.. I was patient and went for a third try. I explained I do not think we can win with the healer because they are not up to a standard, and asked them if they would leave the duty so another healer could join and we could complete it. They would not take the penalty and the party ended up with vote abandon. We need to have a way to vote kick players who are unbearably bad. I am not asking for people to be raid level competent, but when a healer can't keep a competent tank alive in a levelling dungeon after 3 tries... why should the whole party have to lose the time and effort of that dungeon. It is obvious the healer had just done fates and joined a dungeon they could not cope with.