SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[Ciri_Wolf]

#maketankinggreatagain

on a side note, do you feel that reducing the amount of tanks required for the less hardcore 24 man raids was a good idea, considering were talking about a raid comp that involves 2/4/2?

Yeah, most of time you only need 1 MT for the mechanics anyway.

[ADVSS]

My biggest concern when they create a classic job is how closely it resembles and feels to the iconic job. Obviously in an mmo set up you cant get away with instant kill moves(wow the Feast would be so chaotic), but I just realized that I really dont know what SAM's "thing" is. In almost every iteration it had that iconic appearance, used katana or great katana(both hands skill) but every game it seemed to be entirely different. one game its throwing coins to deal massive damage, the next its got like 8 sword techniques, in another game its breaking katana to cast aoe heals buffs and debuffs, in another it uses break moves....Thematically a tank without iconic restrictions(unlike 'jump or 'darkness')wouldnt really hurt the purity of the job itself.

[MagiusNecros]

Im not going to answer that until you answer what I asked you. Back up your claims.

You won't answer that because you don't have an answer to it.

But to sum up the issues:
-Itemization, how are they going to handle gear? You want them to stick to fending gear when coding in a new set is laughably easy. All you are doing is enabling them to be lazy and take the path of least resistance.
-Casting, they cannot stand still and cast, tanks must be mobile, especially for content like PvP Instant cast spells are already a thing and adding a stance that prevents interruption could also be a thing.
-Iconic jobs that fit the idea of tanking that are also widely requested/popular Then why do people clamor for SAM to be a DPS?
-How this concept is more popular (And thus a safer bet) than a requested job (SAM) that is brought up every week. Red Mage is also a highly requested job. So your point is what?
-How is this job going to be balanced? With wild concepts for abilities comes exponentially more difficulty when balancing The dev team is responsible for their jaded, archaic and pedantic balance.

Beat it chump.

[Katana190]

-Itemization, how are they going to handle gear? You want them to stick to fending gear when coding in a new set is laughably easy. All you are doing is enabling them to be lazy and take the path of least resistance.

Please no. Adding yet another set of armor will be real shitty to raiding (Savage, 24 man, Tome Gear, etc.). The alternative would be to share casting gear, yet another crap alternative as DPS Casters would be prioritised for the gear. Or the easy route, let RDM use Fending Gear.. Its not lazy, its convenient, for SE and the player base. If people really don't want their RDM in Plate Mail then thats why the glamour system is there.. I'm sure the AF gear which comes with RDM will also stick to the theme, but with armor plating. (Providing it is a tank)

[Tanathya]

His other points are just as superficial as the dps points. And most of his points are against RDM not being a tank.

True. But I wouldn't worry (in fact, I don't) to try to elaborate to someone so petty and with such an attitude if I were you. I stopped giving an eff about him. Let him ride his high horse.

Funny how he wants everyone to elaborate then regards such elaborations as "silly", especially when the "freedom to be any job by gearing them exactly the same" was spouted out of his mouth. I actually love him quoting me, makes me laugh

[MagiusNecros]

Please no. Adding yet another set of armor will be real shitty to raiding (Savage, 24 man, Tome Gear, etc.). The alternative would be to share casting gear, yet another crap alternative as DPS Casters would be prioritised for the gear. Or the easy route, let RDM use Fending Gear.. Its not lazy, its convenient, for SE and the player base. If people really don't want their RDM in Plate Mail then thats why the glamour system is there.. I'm sure the AF gear which comes with RDM will also stick to the theme, but with armor plating. (Providing it is a tank)

Then you are left with fending and the only real gear that will match SAM/RDM will be Artifact gear. Why bother adding new sets if people will glamour over hideous gear set designs anyway. Not lazy but convenient you say? I say it's conveniently lazy.

[Katana190]

Then you are left with fending and the only real gear that will match SAM/RDM will be Artifact gear. Why bother adding new sets if people will glamour over hideous gear set designs anyway. Not lazy but convenient you say? I say it's conveniently lazy.

Hmm, maybe you didn't read correctly. It will be convenient for SE and the player base. If I main the tank role, for my case WAR, I also enjoy gearing my other 3 tanks. As a Tank main I like to be able to play all 3 tanks the highest level I can achieve, of course I will also need gear for this, gear on tank can change your gameplay quite a bit. If my DRK/PLD/WAR are fully geared out and I want to give RDM a shot in Savage the following week, but oh wait, I haven't been spending any lore or tokens on RDM loot, I'm in a bit of a pickle, therefore making this extremely inconvenient for me. I'm sure I speak for a large amount of other tanks as well..
You have a point though! SE's gearing is not one of the best I've seen in MMO's, in fact its pretty poor. This is a flaw on SE's part. But if you seriously want RDM to have different gear from the other 3 tanks, then they'll need to do a complete overhaul of how gearing works in this game, which surprise.. isn't going to happen anytime soon, maybe I'm wrong though! Maybe they'll completely change how gearing and the likes work in 4.0, we'll just have to see, just like we'll just have to see if RDM or SAM will get the tank spot.

[ADVSS]

Then you are left with fending and the only real gear that will match SAM/RDM will be Artifact gear. Why bother adding new sets if people will glamour over hideous gear set designs anyway. Not lazy but convenient you say? I say it's conveniently lazy.

Yeah after seeing lore gear, im seeing a trend here with the first tome gear being truly thematic to the jobs then we just get....stuff we probably glamour over every time the ilevel increases.. I would have to agree.

It would probably be easier to make a rdm tank use str/vit i mean really the damage main stat modifiers dont matter, they couldve got rid of dex and made nin use str, they just didnt. But what they did do is tack on dex to old monk gear until the gear was current at the time and start making sets for ninja specifically... but I think whatever you want to call it, they very much like making those sets for whatever role/ or type of dps. We used to have maiming and striking accessories, for instance. they smashed them together to make slaying probably after the itemization in first coil with the accessories

[MagiusNecros]

So basically in Katana's words "if new class is tank they must use the shared gear that already exists so I can gear all my tanks up at the same time because I raid and gearing up quickly and efficiently is very convenient for me and my group". Which all that gear is....heavy armor?

Who knows maybe SAM and RDM will both be DPS jobs. And get stuck with Maiming and Casting Gear. Or make RDM a healer. Stuck with healing gear and then suddenly that red mage is always getting the color white on it instead of the thematic red. And if it's casting everything is Black.

And if a new artifact set comes out in the next expansion the jobs will release and you'll end up waiting 3 months on top of that to grind out more tomestones for an additional month just to have a thematic look to the Red Mage or Samurai job. And that's pretty fucking sad.

Oh but dye and glamour. So who cares!

[Katana190]

So basically in Katana's words "if new class is tank they must use the shared gear that already exists so I can gear all my tanks up at the same time because I raid and gearing up quickly and efficiently is very convenient for me and my group". Which all that gear is....heavy armor?

Who knows maybe SAM and RDM will both be DPS jobs. And get stuck with Maiming and Casting Gear. Or make RDM a healer. Stuck with healing gear and then suddenly that red mage is always getting the color white on it instead of the thematic red. And if it's casting everything is Black.

And if a new artifact set comes out in the next expansion the jobs will release and you'll end up waiting 3 months on top of that to grind out more tomestones for an additional month just to have a thematic look to the Red Mage or Samurai job. And that's pretty fucking sad.

Oh but dye and glamour. So who cares!

Sigh.. I guess you just don't understand what I'm trying to get at. Lets take a quick look at some of the tank jobs, just for a moment. Okay so we have PLD, they use plate armor, fending gear makes sense. DRK also uses.. plate armor, so fending gear again makes sense. Now we have WAR, WAR's traditionally use heavy leather armor, so where does that put our big bulky fending gear on WAR? It doesn't fit right.. WAR's should always use heavy leather, so lets also add another set of raiding gear and call it Midan Heavy Leather Armor...

This is my point, don't pull some crap saying but WAR's traditionally can use plate armor, because so can RDM's (according to someone telling me this, tfw I'm a total FF noob)
If you want to keep your theme of RDM that's why the AF armor sets are there, fending gear doesn't represents the job wearing the gear but the role it is, for this instance it is a tank.

My logic comes straight from the developers and I'm trying to work it around them, while yours is in fairy land, while I'm trying to stay realistic. As I said earlier, I could be wrong and you could be right, but unless SE are willing to change how their game's gearing system works, I'm sticking to the confinements of the game and how it works currently.