SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[ShinMetsu]

You know, there's a few who keep saying that adding a new tank doesn't bring in new players to the role, which I absolutely refute, but if we humor that idea for a moment, then we gotta look at what the tank population enjoys. Completely disregarding SAM's place in the picture, I gotta say a RDM or BLU tank look boring, and will be the first tanks ever in an FF game that don't interest me. In XI, I leveled PLD, NIN, WAR (zerg tank), SAM (merit pt tank), MNK (Salvage tank), and was working on DRK (new zerg tank) before quitting.

I always level every tank, but a RDM/BLU tank just doesn't appeal to me. It needs to be said that being completely original doesn't mean interesting.

That is exactly the point. Why do you have to exclude other people with different tastes from tanking?
There is a lot of people that would rather play a mage and RDM could be the gateway to tanking for a lot of them.

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy. And it was godly at soloing.


Then let me make some other arguments for RDM.
Where would you place a RDM? As jack of all trades, it should have access to melee, white and black magic.
As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.
As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.
As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

And what is RDM gonna do with it's Shield otherwise? Just for looks? :P


But i feel like there is no point anymore, it's obvious you only want more of the same stuff we already have.
To me that's just like the same car but a different color, sure, it might look nice. But it's gonna drive the same.

Having tanked for well over a decade myself considering ffxi.. Personally i'd welcome the variety, very much so.
I had actually written up a rdm tank concept myself here.


As for Samurai, I wonder how many people would pick Samurai if you asked for their opinion on the top 5 Damage Dealers across FF.
If SE does decide to make Samurai a tank, i hope they manage to come up with a fresh concept for tanking.
Still would like to see a Samurai tank concept that actually looks different from what we already got as well as fits it.

[Shippuu]

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy. And it was godly at soloing.

Because it utilized /Nin. By using NIN's Utsustemi it was able to create a certainly OP gimmick. Any other sub job and RDM couldn't tank/solo anything that was actually challenging. Not really a good argument when it had to rely on another job's abilities to make it overpowered.

Then let me make some other arguments for RDM.
Where would you place a RDM? As jack of all trades, it should have access to melee, white and black magic.
As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.

This doesn't rule out new healing type abilities or supplemental buffs. They can easily have utility-like white magic spells that can perform functions similar to Mantra. Or provide a weaker version of WHM's Asylum. Or even just an instant cast medica-like spell that is on a cooldown. They get to use white magic without having to stand there and try and individually heal people. It's utility and honestly goes in-line well with Ninja, who offers a lot of utility while being melee and having a handful of magical ranged attacks.

As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

Sure, except they don't traditionally wear Heavy Armor and that's a further step away from "Final Fantasy Red Mage" than having a Samurai in heavy armor. So it's not only not what they traditionally use in FF games, it opens up a huge itemization issue if they don't use heavy fending armor. More work for devs = less likely to happen.

As for Samurai, I wonder how many people would pick Samurai if you asked for their opinion on the top 5 Damage Dealers across FF.

I wonder how many people would pick a different job that we have that would be even higher on that list that is now a tank in FFXIV. (DRK)

And I wonder how many people think Samurai is a top DPS because it sometimes has abilities that can instantly kill enemies. An ability that would never make it into an MMO because it would be utterly overpowered. And I wonder how many people are just so caught up in what they picture Samurai as from different media and not even realize how Samurai actually were in FF games (Like you do) and as such have a skewed and incorrect image of Samurai in FF games.

[Shurrikhan]

That argument is such a load of bullcr*p. Give tanks the uninteresting / makes no sense tank (anything but SAM)? There are way more interesting concepts than SAM.
You're undermining people's argument's like crazy. And here you are asking SAM to be a direct replacement to WAR, which you've been stuck on and trying to switch from? How is that not entirely selfish?

Logical and factual arguments? DRG has heavy armor, but is a DPS? MNK uses leather, but had Taunt in 1.0?
Also, about the queue times. A different kind of tank, one that is more Mage-like, would help the queue times way more in the long run.

To be honest, Pugilist started as a battlefield manipulator and opportunist dps. Much like Gladiator started as a snap/swap-tank, and Lancer started most strongly as party support, strike leader style. The divisions were a lot less rigid / stale back then, even if incomplete in iteration. ...Which I'd like to back to in some ways, and this time complete.

[DWolfwood]

Why do you have to exclude other people with different tastes from tanking?
There is a lot of people that would rather play a mage and RDM could be the gateway to tanking for a lot of them.

If you're really gonna try to use this point, surely the realization that tons of people are going to be more interested in a Samurai tank than a Red Mage has crossed your mind. While people like yourself may not like it, overall, more people are going to play the Samurai tank than Red Mage, even you seem to be willing to try it. It's just got more wide-appeal.

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy.

And when was this exactly? Are we talking low-man content once it became irrelevant? RDM could tank, but it definitely wasn't what we used in world progression and anything relevant to dominating a server. Being able to solo a lot of content, ala Avesta, is not the same as tanking.

And it was godly at soloing.

Yep, and I don't offer anything that should change that in XIV.

Where would you place a RDM?...
As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.

Yep, as a Healer. It's not only easy to have them use a melee DPS stance ala Clerics, but the concept is actually interesting and can appeal to DPS that would otherwise never play a healing class. Give them lesser cures than WHM, a melee stance, and some offensive spells, and bam, there you go.

And what is RDM gonna do with it's Shield otherwise? Just for looks? :P

WHM and BLM also have shields, does that make them a tank? Not to mention, the buckler of RDM is not even that strongly attached to them, it's just an optional take:



And if you really wanna get into it, the rapier is also optional according to other FF developers:



That said, I think the proper, and more interesting representation wields a rapier. So I'm actually on your side there, but I believe they also need to be able to heal. In no iteration has taking damage been an aspect of RDM except FFXI, which arguably had every single job "tank" at some point from WHM to RNG to DRK. In fact, RDM are specifically weaker than Warriors physically.

it's obvious you only want more of the same stuff we already have.
To me that's just like the same car but a different color, sure, it might look nice. But it's gonna drive the same.

Yeah, I see variety in having an Eastern tank job. You see variety in having another sword/shield tank that uses magic to enhance their defenses. It sounds like another shade of PLD/DRK to me, which already struggle with defining themselves. I'd prefer more magic abilities in 4.0 for PLD and DRK.

[ADVSS]

you bring a valid point. even if i dont really want to see rdm a healer i guess in any iteration it could take any of the 3 available roles,and somehow fit. a melee healer is sort of needed, and a melee caster is. a melee tank with spells, sort of exists, and thats why im hesitant about that role for rdm. as far as sam, a tank or dps makes sense, healer god no. Again though you could take either job as a tank/dps or dps/healer, and maybe thats why wed only need 2 jobs in the next expansion. but i really couldnt care if this time around they are WELL thought out. enjoyable to play, and do their role well without too much bs involved(mp constantly draining ballad wont help but potions and ethers andelixers do for some god forsaken reason,etc) i dont think itll be a 2 jobs crystal thing if it happens this way, and again why i would pick rdm as a dps is that it sort of fits in between either role. theres very little distinguishing a caster dps or a healer)sch proved that) or a tank as a dps(strength tanking proved that) so maybe thats their aim itd make the community a bit happier im sure if we got options, or not. It just depends i guess on what the real outcome is or why were looking at 2 jobs that at this point right now, have to fill 1 role only. Maybe we'll get surprised, im not getting hyped, but maybe. we all agree if its a tank and a dps, well healers would get left out and we all would agree thats wrong, especially as how the classes jobs and roles are balanced, the obvious assumption would e we got an insane number of dps as opposed to the 3 tanks and 3 healers, but i dont want any classic job to break the mold just to fill a number. if they do o the route of dps or tank or dps or healer, i hope they look into some of the previous jobs, mainly the newer 3 but i wont get into any detail how id like a tp based healer

Edit:Red Mage could use staffs in ff1 we all never gave them one for a reason, they sort of sucked, rapiers and scimitars and mithril swords were better

[Katana190]

Then let me make some other arguments for RDM.
Where would you place a RDM? As jack of all trades, it should have access to melee, white and black magic.
As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.
As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.
As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

This is definitely a good point. The only problem I see with a Mage Tank is the constant interrupts it would get, it would ruin the gameplay and make it unplayable unless they had a way around it, I doubt we would see RDM with any sort of cast spells but rather insta casts, which take away from the 'Mage' feeling, a bit like how DRK was supposed to have "spells" but it just felt like it had some oGCD's that do magic dmg and its aoe and pull which aren't used as much as your standard combo's in raiding... The exact same thing will probably happen with RDM, taking away from this different type of tank idea people are getting. Don't get me wrong, I think RDM tank is super interesting... but it sounds like they would have to change a lot of tanking gameplay mechanics to make RDM truly feel unique, which I can't see SE doing, when creating different jobs SE tends to keep in mind that people will switch jobs within their current role, making the difference in gameplay not that diverse.

My opinion will stay the same though, RDM or SAM tank. I have no qualms with either at this point, their both very aesthetically pleasing and have unique themes in gameplay from previous FF titles (I think?) Although now RDM tank is out of the way... I can very well picture RDM being a melee support DPS, similar to ninja... instead of an TP Goad it could have an MP Goad..? instead of Trick Attack it could have a party wide haste buff? (Just an example), Instead of Shade Shift it could have a shield using White Magic, etc.. You get the point.

Edit: To clarify I went back and clicked Shin's link, his idea does give me the feeling of mage tank... but my concern would still stay if SE could actually pull it off, the spells would just be oGCD's and not give you the spell casting feeling of a Mage Tank. Not like I want to cast while tanking, but cutting the buffs and such into my gcd gives you more exciting gameplay rather then just press buttons for free buffs/spells.

[Shippuu]

People asking for a magic casting tank aren't taking something else into consideration. Outside of being interrupted by being hit (And thus needing a passive that prevents this), there's also the very important factor of movement. Tanks generally don't have the luxury of being able to continuously stand still in order to cast things. They're moving often to avoid enemy attacks. From bosses, to massive pulls that are pretty standard when doing dungeons. The more enemies you have on you, the more often you're going to have to move. Or how about in PvP, how will this tank perform it's job in PvP if it cannot be standing all the time to cast abilities, given that game mode is a very mobile activity. The end result would be a tank that nobody would want for that content or has significant problems that other tanks handle easily. Making such a problematic concept is directly contradicting how SE has chosen to design it's jobs so that everything is viable. Even very minor weaknesses in jobs results in a damaged reputation and stigma towards that job by the rest of the player base that is hard to change.

The solution to this problem would naturally be either: A) This magic casting class has no real important abilities that rely on cast times, which begs what would be the point of even having those casting abilities. B) They have another trait/passive that enables them to cast while moving, which again then it's not particularly a caster, just a regular job that has a wait time on their abilities to go off. Or C) Their spells are instant cast and thus the job is absolutely no different then things like we have with DRK where they have magical themed abilities that do AoE etc.

Once again, the bigger picture needs to be looked at, things need to be considered. The same goes with melee healers which simply will not work in this game, especially when there are fight mechanics that require the healers to move away from the rest of the group (Ifrit EX, Alexander Gordian 4) and other mechanics where additional players in melee range will only severely complicate things resulting in a healer nobody would want in their group over a WHM/SCH/AST.

[ADVSS]

I cant agree more, Shippu. Id add in stuff like cloth armor and mage hp as offtank and emergency voking bosses, or other things that tanks are responsible for, but i totally already said that in another thread already. If either have to be a tank in raids and dungeons tank a samurai imo would fit it better. IF things like crowd control were useful, there ^could^ be a way to design a very unique tank, but in the end out of dungeons and pvp itd still have to face the boss taking punches to the face, stunning busters or mitigating them, or dodging aoes constantly... closest next job i can for sure see as being a magic based tank using en spells would have to be like a Mystic Knight from ff5, and i believe one of its last ability traits was called M/barrier, i think was like reflect effect, I could definitely see that one being a magic focused tank.

[EdwinLi]

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There are two types of Magic often use in RPGs being Channel types which we refer to as Casting types and then there is the Instant types being the instant cast ones.

For those who ask...

Channel type spells may require time to charge but gives off strong attack
Instant are fast to use but sacrifice their strength to be as devastating as a spell that requires a time to charge.

A Mage Tank will have to go Instant cast type as it is the only way to stay mobile.

On another topic:
I am a bit curious on what can be a Tank after the 4.0 Job release as choices are very small for a Tank Job release in 5.0, 6.0, and etc. SE will have to get creative with future tank Jobs if they want to start attracting people because Vanity alone is not enough to attract new Tank Players.

SE may also have to start considering another Mail Armor Job as well if SAM does not become a DPS Job unless they plan to have Mail Armor exclusive to DRG only.

[FinalWolf]

If SAM doesn't have a sword called Ichimonji I will cry.