4.0 Ideas

[Yuni_Queen]

^ But what kind of debuffs would that be, so it woudnt be overpowered?
INT Down, maybe STR? some magic resistance down, physical would be too OP i think?
Support tank can't have too much of those debuffs too.

I quess it would be normal job with different set of debuffs palette.

[Februs]

I quess it would be normal job with different set of debuffs palette.

Most likely.

My guess is that a support styled tank would have to balance buffs and debuffs with enmity generation. If we're sticking with the current formula, they'd have 3 primary combos and a few oGCDs/CD's. That's 6 potential moves which can grant either enmity or a debuff of some kind, followed by CD's/oGCD's which create buffs for the team Personally, in order to not make the job too slanted in favour of offense or defense, I picture a tank like this needing to utilize stance dancing more frequently than the others, in order to maintain a balance of enmity vs effect. In order to avoid overlapping buffs with other jobs, one of their moves would likely buff the potency or effect of other party abilities for a limited time. Not my cup of tea, personally, but I could see how it would work.

[Kaizer]

Most likely.

My guess is that a support styled tank ...

I... I thought this was PLD?

[Februs]

So far my speculations were like that. But since no one is saying a thing, i start to believe SAM will be a DPS, while tank role will be taken by some kind of weird class that existed only in certain FF episode.

If I remember correctly, SE has already said that Samurai won't be a tank. Yoshi-P stated in an interview that he "felt" like Samurai was more of a dps job rather than a Tank job. They haven't announced anything official about it yet, but it's most likely that Sam is being developed for dps ... unless Yoshi-P was just trying to throw everyone off, that is.

Regardless, that interview is probably why people stopped talking about Samurai as a Tank job, because most of us are assuming that Yoshi-P kiboshed the idea.

I... I thought this was PLD?

Very amusing lol. Sadly, no. Outside of PvP arenas, War's single slashing debuff provides more party support then all of Pld's support moves combined, because most of Pld's support functions aren't needed. You can never have "too much" dps, but you most definitely can have "too much" defense. If the party isn't using it, then it's not needed.

Ideally, if they do decide to do a "support styled" tank, then it would most certainly have to take its queues from War, not Pld. Otherwise no one would use it, because it wouldn't be useful.

[ADVSS]

LOL an original idea! A low dps tank that uses random cards to buff its party members like war cries, I mean coome on, it fits the tendancy of making new original jobs completely unique by having to be either or, maybe itll have a paladin stance or a warrior stance too

[Violette]

Very amusing lol. Sadly, no. Outside of PvP arenas, War's single slashing debuff provides more party support then all of Pld's support moves combined, because most of Pld's support functions aren't needed. You can never have "too much" dps, but you most definitely can have "too much" defense. If the party isn't using it, then it's not needed.

Ideally, if they do decide to do a "support styled" tank, then it would most certainly have to take its queues from War, not Pld. Otherwise no one would use it, because it wouldn't be useful.

Something something Divine Veil something spinny tornado of death.

Not to argue that war's constant 10% damage down isn't approaching broken levels of stupidly useful, but PLD's Divine Veil is an extremely useful and easy to activate defensive skill that for progression can be the difference between wipe now or wipe l8r.

[Februs]

Not to argue that war's constant 10% damage down isn't approaching broken levels of stupidly useful, but PLD's Divine Veil is an extremely useful and easy to activate defensive skill that for progression can be the difference between wipe now or wipe l8r.

Useful, sure, but there is a limit to how useful it actually is, even in progression raids.

The bottom line is that there is no fight in the entire game in which Divine Veil cannot be easily done without or replaced by adequate healing. If the healers can mitigate or heal the dmg without the use of DV, then that extra defense is unnecessary or not even used. Depending on the circumstances and how well or poorly the raid is preforming, DV can literally have no effect whatsoever on anything, regardless of when it's used. It does not negate the need for healing following raid wide damage, so healers still have to cast. Heals work off of fixed potencies, so the amount healed is the same regardless of how much dmg the shield mitigated (so long as that value is below 100%). That means that healers get no additional Dps time and no mana conservation through the use of DV, assuming they weren't already falling behind. The only time it's useful is if your party is already struggling, or if the shield is enough to save a party member from certain death.

Compare that to the Slashing Resistance Debuff granted by Storm's Eye. There is literally never a time in which this is not being used. Even if all of your dps are casters and your second tank DC's, the War who applied the buff is still using it. Applying it is an instant increase to Dps, and there is literally no limit to how much Dps a party can use. No one ever says, "good job on that dps check guys, but I think we need to slow it down a bit."

In the end we're comparing utility ceilings in which one move simply has no ceiling. There is a limit to how much defense is actually used by a party, but there is no limit to how much Dps is used by a party.

[Violette]

In the end we're comparing utility ceilings in which one move simply has no ceiling. There is a limit to how much defense is actually used by a party, but there is no limit to how much Dps is used by a party.

Actually there have been several end game fights where Damage has to be held to deal with mechanics, which resulted in conserve/burn phases, but that was back in 2.XX so it's not too much discuss.

And of course the slashing debuff is always applicable, but is DPS utility/support/defense? As I said, the 10% DAMAGE DOWN from Warrior is universally useful, but there were cases where this was not applicable. Same as the Paladin's 10% str down or the DRK/MNK's int down, they are great damage mitigation tools in fights with soft enrages (A8S, T9, T13?(kind of but not really but kind of)) and when there are SOFT enrages, there is never enough defense because a dead dps does no dps.

There were fights were without every cooldown possible (including LB3 defensively), you would wipe due to the large amount of damage incoming. Divine Veil is useful in the same way Aldoquim and Succor are useful, they prevent damage meaning it doe not have to be healed if the shielding is adequate. So while you say

Heals work off of fixed potencies, so the amount healed is the same regardless of how much dmg the shield mitigated (so long as that value is below 100%). That means that healers get no additional Dps time and no mana conservation through the use of DV, assuming they weren't already falling behind.

You're ignoring the fact that stoneskin/shields are useful precisely because they prevent healing having to be done.

You pop DV during sizzlesparks so that the MedicaII ticks will heal people up or so the second healer can dps for a little longer, not because a healer is falling behind. So that the people have that extra barrier of HP during the AoE's from Blaster or so that the debuffs can be passed safer.
You use DV so that burst damage is mitigated across the party, reducing healing load in non-constant damage phases.


It's a tool that allows you to actively pre-mitigate damage so your healers can stay ahead of both healing and dps.
If you have everything on farm then yes, take a dps composition because your group is 10000% perfect. But that's not what defense is all about. It's surviving long enough to get to that point.


It doesn't negate the healing, but if that's your train of thought can you explain why parties don't go Diurnal Ast/Whm in raid for MAXIMUM HEALS?

[Yuni_Queen]

SE has already said that Samurai won't be a tank.

Can you please gimme link?

Anyway, if it wasn't said officially, it wasn't said at all. :P
Not the first time though.

[Februs]

Can you please gimme link?

Anyway, if it wasn't said officially, it wasn't said at all. :P
Not the first time though.

That's true. I still hope they'll go back on it, and it's not like Yoshi-P comes up with every idea that is used in the game. I'm sure the Dev team will ultimately do what they think is best. Here's that link for you, though.

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs...12_673698.html

If I remember correctly, he says something about how the current image of samurai that they are working with is leaning towards its strong Dps, but this is a pretty old interview (like early HW). That image could have changed...maybe?