SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[DWolfwood]

Dark Knight is not a mage, it's knight that uses MP.

For me, it's one that uses magic.

Dark Knights main weapon is its sword, not the half dozen or so spells it insta-casts...

DRK's main mechanic is managing MP for Darkside and Dark Arts. The other aspects of its toolkit are really weak in defining it. You can't really say that it's defined by being a melee and then say that WAR is more unique, but more importantly a casting tank would require a method of casting without interruption. This game is simply too fast paced to accommodate a caster tank right now. It's why people raged about Clemency and got the change they did, and also a big reason why it's still not used that much.

Meanwhile, I can't imagine it would be too hard to have an INT based tank like Blue or Red Mage, those would very much be mage style tanks. The only issue comes with gear; Do they wear Fending or Casting? Well, I'd say there is no problem having them tank in Casting sets... It can't be too hard to have the Jobs MT stance function fairly similarly to Clerics Stance...

Using a stance to convert caster gear to tank gear isn't as simple as Cleric. Cleric merely swaps MND with INT, so yes you could swap INT with STR, but where does the extra VIT come from? Do you want the mage tank to have a tiny pool of HP? If you boost their base HP, their HP will quickly be dwarfed by the increase in ilevel. What stat converts into their defense? Even if you do this, it would mean tanking w/o tank stance becomes even worse than what tanks do now since they now have caster defense/HP without it. Of course it can be done, but It's more complex than you're suggesting.

Likewise for a "melee" healer like Dancer, it can share gear with Ninja, but a stance could easily convert DEX into MND for the purpose of healing... It can still sit out at the back, throwing ranged weapons instead of casting Stone/Ruin/Malefic and Dancing to heal party members, instead of casting Cure/etc. That's very much distinct from the current trio of mage healers IMO

What is so wrong with a RDM healer? RDM are known to be jacks of all trades. That means they shouldn't be able to take hits like a warrior or paladin, but should have some means of shielding. They shouldn't have the dps of monk or dragoon, but have decent dps along with a rapier. They shouldn't have the healing of white mage, but should be able to heal a party. To me this clearly points to it being a frontline melee healer. Take all your ideas and place them on RDM and it starts to make sense to me. DNC should be a frontline support job in the future.

Dark Knight isn't remotely distinct enough from Paladin or Warrior, while a Blue Mage tank very much could be.

Blue Mage could be almost anything. I do agree that it could be a tank, but I think it would take a considerable amount of effort in comparison to something like Samurai. The gear/defense problem is not one to take lightly. Samurai can wear all current tank gear without any real questions. Perhaps the only gear that looks odd is the traditional knight looking sets and the Gerolt Masterworks set, but I doubt anyone would really be bothered by this. Blue Mage has less of identity, but I still don't see them wearing the majority of tank sets that are currently out there, whereas it could easily become this frontline caster DPS that everyone seems to want when they say they want RDM as a DPS.

Why is DNC as a frontline healer an okay option, but RDM is not?

Why is RDM as a frontline caster DPS an okay option, but not BLU is not?

[MagiusNecros]

Better start calling Paladin a Mage Tank too with all those Cures, Stoneskins, and Clemency being thrown around.

Game fast paced? Oh pls

[DWolfwood]

Better start calling Paladin a Mage Tank too with all those Cures, Stoneskins, and Clemency being thrown around.

Game fast paced? Oh pls

For the record, I think PLD should be more about healing than it is. I think the design fell short there. As for casting while tanking? Yeah, it is too fast paced for that currently. In FFXI it worked for PLD/NIN because the autoattacks were ages in between each other while the cast times were the same as they are here. Furthermore, the game doesn't even block interruptions with shield/parry procs.

[AlphaFox]

I am sure they could find a way to make a caster work as a Tank. Say let the initial hate spells be quick or instant casts but let the basic rotations be normal cast and a mix of Single target or AoE. The stats are the only part where the idea falls apart for me.

[DWolfwood]

I am sure they could find a way to make a caster work as a Tank. Say let the initial hate spells be quick or instant casts but let the basic rotations be normal cast and a mix of Single target or AoE. The stats are the only part where the idea falls apart for me.

I think they should start by making parry and shield procs prevent spell interruption. This also opens the door for a more traditional PLD in my opinion, where healing is a major part of their toolkit.

Something I think people are ignoring is that the future should bring more to each of our jobs, and I think if they want to bring offensive magic casting into the mix, they should first look at DRK. They could give us a single target Drain Spell for instance, or a number of other offensive spells. Yes, it wouldn't be a completely offensive-spell based tank, but I think it still helps give the current tanks more unique flavor.

[Kazrah]

This also opens the door for a more traditional PLD in my opinion, where healing is a major part of their toolkit.

Just because a job was one role or more in a past Final Fantasy game doesn't mean that it'll be the same way in FFXIV. PLD is known in FFXIV as a more original knight lead by morals, not as the tank that doubles as a healer in some other Final Fantasy game.

Also, wasn't this thread supposed to be about Samurai?

[DWolfwood]

Also, wasn't this thread supposed to be about Samurai?

More specifically, it's a thread about how SAM should be both a Tank and DPS. However, people keep justifying one or the other with examples like, "RDM should be tank," which leads to more discussion and inevitably leads to discussions on tanks.

I don't think people should be asking: "Which should be tank?: SAM, RDM, or BLU."

People should be asking: "Should SAM be: Only a Tank, Only a DPS, or Both." which shouldn't affect the questions: "should RDM be a Tank, Healer, or DPS" and "should BLU be a Tank, Healer, or DPS."

[Souleater13]

People are making good points on all parts of the spectrum.
I have always preferred playing a dps, when SE announced DRK I re-subbed to the game for DRK is my favorite class and looked forward to using it once again. Finding out that it would a tank role was not what I wanted to hear but since it was my favorite I would still play it. I don't mind being a tank role, still would prefer DRK to be dps but it is what it is.
The biggest let down about DRK is that there is the lack of sacrifice hp skills or other skills that are iconic to DRK from the rest of the FF series. SE could of made it work and still be a tank role.

So for Samurai whether its tank or dps as long as SE executes it properly is what should matter most.

I do agree that there should be a dps class that uses swords. Samurai being introduced as dps would definitely steal people from tank roles. I myself prefer a sword dps class so thinking forward what will hold my attention, my favorite class; DRK or sword dps class; potentially samurai.

Personally I think SE should bring Samurai into the game as tank and convert DRK to dps. hahahhaha never will happen...or will it.....

[MagiusNecros]

Personally I think SE should bring Samurai into the game as tank and convert DRK to dps. hahahhaha never will happen...or will it.....

Wouldn't surprise if Yoshi decided to give Samurai Dark Knight mechanics. The whole sacrifice HP for attack power shtick.

[Nalien]

For me, it's one that uses magic.

That's fine, just realize when I (and likely others) ask for a mage tank, it isn't what you consider a mage tank. For you, using MP is enough, in which case Dark Knight and Paladin are "mage" tanks, for me the Job actually needs to be using magic as its primary toolset. MP management is a large part of Dark Knight, but for the most part that is down to Dark Arts, and Dark Arts is an enhancement more than anything...

Let me put it this way; A true mage tank would get as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage. Dark Knight gets very little out of Foe's Requiem.

Of course it can be done, but It's more complex than you're suggesting.

It really isn't... Why would you even convert INT into STR? It's a mage tank, it would be used VIT and INT, not VIT and STR... You'd convert some INT into the missing VIT, which would potentially be no different than the damage loss from using Grit/etc. The extra defense is an issue, but that really isn't complex either... It's essentially just something extra tacked onto the Clerics Stance style formula, it's incredibly simple. There is more to it than Clerics Stance, but that doesn't really make it any more complex...

What is so wrong with a RDM healer?

Nothing? Like you said, Red Mage was typically a jack of all trades, and thus I think it could fill any role. Personally I'd like it to be a hybrid melee/mage DPS, Fencing and weaving spells in and out of combos, while sort of like Summoner with regard to White Magic (has a cure and raise for no real reason), but it can be a tank or a healer. Healer is arguably the best option since White Mage is essentially Red Mage already, considering it has heals and nukes, though we lose the fencing aspect certain games made popular.

Why is DNC as a frontline healer an okay option, but RDM is not?

Not what I'm suggesting for Dancer at all... Dancer should be a ranged healer, throwing weapons rather than a carbon copy of XIs version of the Job (although XI gave the Job a throwing weapon for its AF quest, subsequent Relics were all daggers though). Still a backline healer, with Dances having "cast" times, since I know of no dances that are instant, and being the primary form of the Jobs support, can even cost MP for all I care. The Stone/Ruin/Malefic/etc. attack "spells" for Dancer would be TP based attacks based on the Jobs thrown weapon. Slap in a stance that does for DEX and MND what Clerics Stance does for INT and MND, and you can even slap it in appropriate DEX gear, rather than have a Dancer wearing robes...