3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Firstly, the advantages provided by Morale are not "incredible" so much as marginal. Even pre-2.4, comparative item level PvE sets stood toe to toe with PvP equipped players. Having morale did not stack the match so heavily in their favour that it guaranteed a victory. It provided a slight edge, emphasis on slight. The only players who really felt the pinch were players who were vastly under-leveled for the content, but those players felt that pinch regardless because they were also outclassed by high end PvE players. That hasn't changed. A player who is geared at 150 is going to be crushed by a player at 220, and it makes next to no difference if that 220 player has Morale or not.

At the time of Wolf's Den release Morale gave an incredible advantage, one meant to allow i55 PvP players to match i70 PvE players and i70 PvP players to match i90 PvE. A player in i55/i70 PvP gear dealt ~30% more damage and took ~23% less damage than someone geared in i55/i70 PvE. If Morale was returned to its original form and i150 levelsync was maintained players full geared in PvP gear would be 70% stronger than those in any PvE gear.

Further, it really doesn't take long for a player to gear up to a competitive level. You might need 191 wins/381 losses for a full PvP set, but you don't need a full PvP set to be competitive. Currently, it only takes an item level of 190 to sync to the base PvP stat caps for most jobs (with some mix and matching). As it happens, Alexander Gordias hands out item level 190 gear like candy. Then there's the tome gear, which we have two complete sets of. On top of that, we also have the Void Arc gear. There is no shortage of gear for new players to take advantage of before they so much as do a single run of PvP, and it all puts them at a competitive stat level. There's also the possibility that you'll be paired with other players who have that morale bonus already, given that ranked matches use random parties.

I know that current competitive pvp gear in i150 sync PvP any gear i190 or higher. I know why and how thing currently work because I'm one the of guys who originally figured out and posted those numbers in the forum which then got distributed through reddit and elsewhere.

If Morale is returned to its original implementation i190+ PvE gear will no longer be competitive. Only i180 and i205 PvP gear will be viable in i150 sync PvP. You would then be forced to gear up through PvP if you wanted to participate in PvP unless Morale was added to various pieces of PvE gear.

I do understand where you're coming from, and you're being very considerate to new players, but the bottom line is that there is no way that SE should ever be making balancing adjustments at the bottom end of the scale in a game mode that is, by design, supposed to be competitive. This is especially the case when the problem is temporary, and it really wouldn't make a difference regardless of what SE did to try and fix it. This is a statistic based game, and an under-geared player is an under-geared player. When they step into the ring with someone who stands above them, there's only one probable outcome. Morale really doesn't change that. It only gives a means for top end players to maximize their potential when facing off against one another.

So very wrong. This very mentality is why Wolf's Den (The Fold) failed hard and was mostly empty within a month after it was released. The survival of competitive game modes is completely dependent on ease of newbie entry and retention. Veterans alone can not sustain PvP content.

[Iagainsti]

So very wrong. This very mentality is why Wolf's Den (The Fold) failed hard and was mostly empty within a month after it was released. The survival of competitive game modes is completely dependent on ease of newbie entry and retention. Veterans alone can not sustain PvP content.

Hence why Morale needs to be revamped, not re-implemented. I mentioned a scaling system where hitting certain "soft caps" of morale would grant bonuses, not just outright dmg boost/reduction per point. If they were to implement it properly, with the right bonuses at the right levels of morale, we'd be able to cater to both new players and veterans alike.

So far my favourite Bonus ideas /equip "Flame Shield"

30 Morale: 5% damage reduction from PVP abilities
90 Morale: Sleep/Bind duration reduced by 1 second
150 Morale: PvP ability Cool Downs reduced by 5 seconds
300 Morale: 4% Damage/Healing increase for PVP Abilities
375 Morale: Sleep/Bind duration reduced by 2 seconds
400 Morale: 6% Damage/Healing increase to PVP abilities
435 Morale: PVP ability Cool Downs Reduced by 10 seconds

The bonuses would be cumulative; the more gear you acquire, the more tuned you are. Also adding more defensive bonuses at the low end of the scale helps ease new players in while veterans with full bonuses could feel the accomplishment in everything they do.

[Februs]

At the time of Wolf's Den release Morale gave an incredible advantage, one meant to allow i55 PvP players to match i70 PvE players and i70 PvP players to match i90 PvE. A player in i55/i70 PvP gear dealt ~30% more damage and took ~23% less damage than someone geared in i55/i70 PvE. If Morale was returned to its original form and i150 levelsync was maintained players full geared in PvP gear would be 70% stronger than those in any PvE gear.

I'm fully aware of the bonuses Morale provided.I'm also fully aware that it was done this way expressly to allow ilvl 55 players to match ilvl 70 players and so on, but that made perfect sense, at the time. With each subsequent patch, PvP gear is outpaced by item levels of PvE gear because PvE gear scales upwards of 20+ levels during the life cycle of a patch (ie: gear level scaled between 180-210 over the course of 3.0 to 3.2). This was the same deal back before 2.4. If they had not provided a sufficient Morale bonus to PvP gear, then the PvP gear would have been just as useless then as it is now because it would have been outstripped by scaling PvE gear that was faster and easier to attain.

Again, this was not an "incredible" advantage. I was never rendered utterly helpless because of it. It was only meant to allow players to compete at the current maximum available gear level. Personally, I don't think that this was a bad thing. It did mean that under-geared players (those below even the current average item level) got left behind, but their disadvantage is no greater than the one they face when playing against up to date PvE sets and only lasted as long as it took them to gear up.

If Morale is returned to its original implementation i190+ PvE gear will no longer be competitive. Only i180 and i205 PvP gear will be viable in i150 sync PvP. You would then be forced to gear up through PvP if you wanted to participate in PvP unless Morale was added to various pieces of PvE gear.

This is not necessarily true. Firstly, item level 190 gear was only an example. That gear is already long outdated in PvE, so advocating to keep it competitive in PvP when most players are already in 220 sets and above is kind of pointless. Regardless, that's neither here nor there. The more important part is that you're working under the assumption that SE would keep the item level sync the same, should the re-implement Morale. They simply could not do that because of the item level 205 PvP sets.

If the item level 180 PvP set was the top end set, then yes. SE could keep the level sync at 150 and still provide a fair battle ground between equally geared PvE and PvP players. Morale advantage would work much the same way it did pre-2.4 in that it would simply be allowing the PvP gear to survive for the life cycle of the current patch and stay competitive with an ever evolving selection of PvE gear. However, now that they've put out a ilvl 205 set, they forced their own hand. The item level sync would have to be adjusted to allow for higher end PvE sets (roughly around item level 230 or above) to be competitive. I would like to hope that SE was aware of that when they implemented the 205 set, but we won't know for sure until they come to a decision on what they want to do.

So very wrong. This very mentality is why Wolf's Den (The Fold) failed hard and was mostly empty within a month after it was released. The survival of competitive game modes is completely dependent on ease of newbie entry and retention. Veterans alone can not sustain PvP content.

We're gonna have to disagree on this one, because I kept playing Wolves Den expressly because there was a gear discrepancy.

I have no doubt that the Ranking system and gear discrepancies played a hand in some players leaving the Fold early. Competition isn't for everyone, so it's not surprising that some people don't stick it out. However, for a lot of us, the fact that Rank 30 allowed for an advantage gave us something to strive for. The seasoned players kept playing for that very reason. What really killed it for a lot of people (myself included), was the repetition of it all. After a while you're just doing the same thing over and over, and you're always playing against the same people. When I was still climbing ranks, that was fine, because I was getting something out of the deal, but once I reached cap there was just nothing to do anymore. In that regard, seasonal Rankings are a welcome improvement, even if it is just a vanity thing and an ultimately futile venture.

You're definitely right that retention (though not necessarily "newbie" retention) is what keeps competitive game modes alive, but you do not retain players by watering down the field and encouraging everyone to hold hands and skip along in perfect equality. That kind of defies the point of competing. What provides true retention is the prospect of rewards and achievements. People need to be encouraged to strive for better standing, be it in skill or gear or winnings. You can't get that encouragement when your potential growth rate is cut out from the knees at the word go.

With that in mind, though, Morale doesn't even necessarily have to be a flat stat increase. There are other options. Iagainsti's list of scaling effects is a good example. Personally, I'd like to see specific Morale attributes for specific jobs on specific pieces, allowing for players to customize what kind of effects they want to bring into the match with them (ie: Wear gloves A for a party defensive boost. Wear gloves B for an Hp boost, etc); though, that's highly unlikely because SE would have to be committed to creating multiple PvP gear sets (including crafted ones) with each new patch. In any case, the options are almost endless. Completely deleting the stat from the game for the sake of keeping everything "fair" and ultimately stagnant in a competitive setting also eliminates whatever possibilities we could have taken advantage off by changing it to work for the game mode. That would just seems like an awful waste to me.