3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

[Blitzace]

1. Make PVP gear actually be better than PVE (Inside PVP)
2. Give our ranked items back, Give the people that actually put in the time to get to max rank a little bit of glamour love.
3. Just give us X points on all jobs so we don't have to reset stuff all the time xP

[Nalien]

If we have to keep Morale, and I don't think we should, I'd say it would make far more sense to have Morale be a reward multiplier...

I actually had a similar suggestion long ago, though the limited gear set space is what kills this... If that can be sorted out, I'd love to need separate sets for various different events, since that provides much more content for the game... Doing dungeons for dungeon gear, because dungeon gear has "Treasure Hunter" on it, and increases the rewards from "casual" content would provide a solid use for what is currently just gear there to trade in for GC seals... Likewise, having Morale function the same way, and improve the rewards for PvP would be nice... Higher Morale, the higher the stakes; Win and you get more, lose and you get less. Whether that is the tomestones, Wolf Marks, or Rating, IDK...

I can't really agree with a stat that actually has any impact on the battle itself... I don't even think gear should matter in PvP, everyones stats should be standardized to provide a level playing field, same goes for AP... As someone who has done a fair bit of PvP, I just find the gearing and AP annoying; Resetting AP is irritating (and yes, we can macro that now, whatever) and gearing doesn't really add anything to me except inventory headache... Were I new to PvP? I'd just find these things unfair, would I blame my losing on my inexperience, or the fact that the veterans have a slight advantage with something like AP? If my healer uses Divine Breath on me, and I get up at 30% HP and die quickly again, while my enemy does the same thing, only for them to be at 50% HP, how can I view that as an even match? To me, both gearing and AP are very much PvE mechanics, they're perfectly fine in PvE and that's where they belong (that's my way of saying put AP in PvE please)... In PvP? I either don't care for them, or am actively annoyed by them... I'm here for PvP, not some lame progression system... The Rating system is all we need in terms of a PvP progression system IMO... It becomes more of a veterans reward then, though... Someone who PvPs for longer is already better than a newb, they don't need Morale providing them an advantage, instead PvP gear is an investment. You PvP long enough, you buy the PvP gear, use it in battle and suddenly you're getting twice the Wolf Marks you were before to buy Materia with, and you should totally add all Materia to the Wolves' Den Pier given we can get it from Diadem too... How long ago did I, and plenty others, suggest that? Do it already...

Inventory space is the major issue facing whatever they do with Morale though... Trash Morale and leave the gear as glamour? Good, but I'm still running out of inventory space to hold this crap... Actually give Morale some solid use, either in making matches unbalanced, or providing better rewards for veterans, then you better be expanding the Armoury Chest soon... I simply do not have the gear set spaces for all the PvP sets I'd like...

[Cynric]

snip

I'd be fine with morale giving more marks if wolf marks were actually worth something. They need to add way more stuff to den shops.

[Nalien]

I'd be fine with morale giving more marks if wolf marks were actually worth something. They need to add way more stuff to den shops.

Definitely.

Materia would be an easy item to add with plenty of demand, and unlike Tomestones Wolf Mark rewards are tied more to victory, so I don't think we'd have to worry about an influx of trash quite as much with such a thing... t4 and t5 Materia would be fairly costly I'd imagine... More of a reward for people actually interested in PvP, rather than something someone who isn't going to bother will be able to farm with any real efficiency...

Not sure what they could add beyond that, though with new Grand Company Ranks coming, we can perhaps see Wolf Marks being more useful for obtaining Grand Company Seals again, and of course Wolf Marks have always been great for Desynthesis... An odd minion or mount perhaps... That's not as sustainable though... They'd need to keep adding new ones and I'd rather they not spend time on something like that... Perhaps something as costly as Fenrir would work, though we'd need Wolf Mark Tokens for that to work...

Relic style PvP weapons would always be nice I suppose, though they would have to require a lot of Wolf Marks... I still think they'd be better off reworking solo Rating to be a general PvP thing, rather than a Feast specific thing, and just giving us Job specific Rating with PvP Relics being the reward there... A Rating Roulette could keep all PvP relevant, and being Job specific could balance out the Job meta somewhat... They could always rework the way Rating rewards work; Rather than obtaining the gear in the mail, you obtain a token that can be exchanged, along with some Wolf Mark tokens, for the gear... Sort of like most tomestone weapons I guess... That would give Wolf Marks an extra purpose I suppose... Probably a bad idea that people wont like though, shouldn't have to do anything extra to earn that gear if you're already ranking so high... I mean you probably earned enough Wolf Marks to just get the gear getting that Rating, but whatever...

[Februs]

Snip.

I don't see this as a problem so much as an inevitability. It's the nature of the game. At any given time, new players in fresh gear will be outranked by seasoned players who have had time to gear up. That's the same for PvE as well as PvP. The new player will always be disadvantaged when compared to an old player, but that disadvantage is temporary.

Firstly, the advantages provided by Morale are not "incredible" so much as marginal. Even pre-2.4, comparative item level PvE sets stood toe to toe with PvP equipped players. Having morale did not stack the match so heavily in their favour that it guaranteed a victory. It provided a slight edge, emphasis on slight. The only players who really felt the pinch were players who were vastly under-leveled for the content, but those players felt that pinch regardless because they were also outclassed by high end PvE players. That hasn't changed. A player who is geared at 150 is going to be crushed by a player at 220, and it makes next to no difference if that 220 player has Morale or not.

To be perfectly honest, under-leveled players shouldn't even be queuing up for PvP in the first place. It's end-game content, and you should be geared accordingly. No one expects to go into Alexander Savage at the bare minimum required item level and have an equally smooth ride as a player who is 20 levels above. Why should we expect any different for PvP? Further, no one is twisting new player's arms to queue up for ranked matches (which are the only ones I believe should apply morale). You don't throw a kitten in with lions and expect it to survive. New players should be starting in the kiddy corner where no one cares about stats and just run around having fun. If they want to step into the ring with the more serious competitors, then they have no right to complain about stat bonus and being out-geared.

Further, it really doesn't take long for a player to gear up to a competitive level. You might need 191 wins/381 losses for a full PvP set, but you don't need a full PvP set to be competitive. Currently, it only takes an item level of 190 to sync to the base PvP stat caps for most jobs (with some mix and matching). As it happens, Alexander Gordias hands out item level 190 gear like candy. Then there's the tome gear, which we have two complete sets of. On top of that, we also have the Void Arc gear. There is no shortage of gear for new players to take advantage of before they so much as do a single run of PvP, and it all puts them at a competitive stat level. There's also the possibility that you'll be paired with other players who have that morale bonus already, given that ranked matches use random parties.

I do understand where you're coming from, and you're being very considerate to new players, but the bottom line is that there is no way that SE should ever be making balancing adjustments at the bottom end of the scale in a game mode that is, by design, supposed to be competitive. This is especially the case when the problem is temporary, and it really wouldn't make a difference regardless of what SE did to try and fix it. This is a statistic based game, and an under-geared player is an under-geared player. When they step into the ring with someone who stands above them, there's only one probable outcome. Morale really doesn't change that. It only gives a means for top end players to maximize their potential when facing off against one another.

[Februs]

Materia would be an easy item to add with plenty of demand, and unlike Tomestones Wolf Mark rewards are tied more to victory, so I don't think we'd have to worry about an influx of trash quite as much with such a thing... t4 and t5 Materia would be fairly costly I'd imagine... More of a reward for people actually interested in PvP, rather than something someone who isn't going to bother will be able to farm with any real efficiency...

Personally, I'm still advocating for them replacing Tomestone bonuses with a vastly expanded PvP vendor system. Not only would this eliminate the plague of tome farmers, but it would also appeal to a much broader audience with almost endless possibilities. Housing items, minions, tomestone items (pretty much anything Rowena sells should be available at the right cost), GC items from all of the GC's (eliminating the need to swap GC's and reset your rank), crafting supplies, materia etc. There are so many other incentives to use to get people to queue into PvP without the need for tomes, if SE would only just make full use out of the vendor system they already have in place.

I do like your idea for a PvP relic (Artifact PvP gear would be a lovely fantasy as well), but it wouldn't make sense unless Morale was put back into the game. There's literally no point to grinding out a new weapon if that weapon can easily be matched by any PvE gear that is currently available and easily attained with almost no effort. If you cannot secure at least the smallest of advantages by customizing your PvP gear, then there is no reason to do it. Currently, without morale, PvP gear is useless. A relic would be equally useless, and not worth the time to grind ... unless you really want it for glamour (in which case it better be damn good looking).

[Iagainsti]

. There's literally no point to grinding out a new weapon if that weapon can easily be matched by any PvE gear that is currently available and easily attained with almost no effort. A relic would be equally useless, and not worth the time to grind ... unless you really want it for glamour (in which case it better be damn good looking).

Yes please!!

[Ultimatecalibur]

Firstly, the advantages provided by Morale are not "incredible" so much as marginal. Even pre-2.4, comparative item level PvE sets stood toe to toe with PvP equipped players. Having morale did not stack the match so heavily in their favour that it guaranteed a victory. It provided a slight edge, emphasis on slight. The only players who really felt the pinch were players who were vastly under-leveled for the content, but those players felt that pinch regardless because they were also outclassed by high end PvE players. That hasn't changed. A player who is geared at 150 is going to be crushed by a player at 220, and it makes next to no difference if that 220 player has Morale or not.

At the time of Wolf's Den release Morale gave an incredible advantage, one meant to allow i55 PvP players to match i70 PvE players and i70 PvP players to match i90 PvE. A player in i55/i70 PvP gear dealt ~30% more damage and took ~23% less damage than someone geared in i55/i70 PvE. If Morale was returned to its original form and i150 levelsync was maintained players full geared in PvP gear would be 70% stronger than those in any PvE gear.

Further, it really doesn't take long for a player to gear up to a competitive level. You might need 191 wins/381 losses for a full PvP set, but you don't need a full PvP set to be competitive. Currently, it only takes an item level of 190 to sync to the base PvP stat caps for most jobs (with some mix and matching). As it happens, Alexander Gordias hands out item level 190 gear like candy. Then there's the tome gear, which we have two complete sets of. On top of that, we also have the Void Arc gear. There is no shortage of gear for new players to take advantage of before they so much as do a single run of PvP, and it all puts them at a competitive stat level. There's also the possibility that you'll be paired with other players who have that morale bonus already, given that ranked matches use random parties.

I know that current competitive pvp gear in i150 sync PvP any gear i190 or higher. I know why and how thing currently work because I'm one the of guys who originally figured out and posted those numbers in the forum which then got distributed through reddit and elsewhere.

If Morale is returned to its original implementation i190+ PvE gear will no longer be competitive. Only i180 and i205 PvP gear will be viable in i150 sync PvP. You would then be forced to gear up through PvP if you wanted to participate in PvP unless Morale was added to various pieces of PvE gear.

I do understand where you're coming from, and you're being very considerate to new players, but the bottom line is that there is no way that SE should ever be making balancing adjustments at the bottom end of the scale in a game mode that is, by design, supposed to be competitive. This is especially the case when the problem is temporary, and it really wouldn't make a difference regardless of what SE did to try and fix it. This is a statistic based game, and an under-geared player is an under-geared player. When they step into the ring with someone who stands above them, there's only one probable outcome. Morale really doesn't change that. It only gives a means for top end players to maximize their potential when facing off against one another.

So very wrong. This very mentality is why Wolf's Den (The Fold) failed hard and was mostly empty within a month after it was released. The survival of competitive game modes is completely dependent on ease of newbie entry and retention. Veterans alone can not sustain PvP content.

[Iagainsti]

So very wrong. This very mentality is why Wolf's Den (The Fold) failed hard and was mostly empty within a month after it was released. The survival of competitive game modes is completely dependent on ease of newbie entry and retention. Veterans alone can not sustain PvP content.

Hence why Morale needs to be revamped, not re-implemented. I mentioned a scaling system where hitting certain "soft caps" of morale would grant bonuses, not just outright dmg boost/reduction per point. If they were to implement it properly, with the right bonuses at the right levels of morale, we'd be able to cater to both new players and veterans alike.

So far my favourite Bonus ideas /equip "Flame Shield"

30 Morale: 5% damage reduction from PVP abilities
90 Morale: Sleep/Bind duration reduced by 1 second
150 Morale: PvP ability Cool Downs reduced by 5 seconds
300 Morale: 4% Damage/Healing increase for PVP Abilities
375 Morale: Sleep/Bind duration reduced by 2 seconds
400 Morale: 6% Damage/Healing increase to PVP abilities
435 Morale: PVP ability Cool Downs Reduced by 10 seconds

The bonuses would be cumulative; the more gear you acquire, the more tuned you are. Also adding more defensive bonuses at the low end of the scale helps ease new players in while veterans with full bonuses could feel the accomplishment in everything they do.

[Februs]

At the time of Wolf's Den release Morale gave an incredible advantage, one meant to allow i55 PvP players to match i70 PvE players and i70 PvP players to match i90 PvE. A player in i55/i70 PvP gear dealt ~30% more damage and took ~23% less damage than someone geared in i55/i70 PvE. If Morale was returned to its original form and i150 levelsync was maintained players full geared in PvP gear would be 70% stronger than those in any PvE gear.

I'm fully aware of the bonuses Morale provided.I'm also fully aware that it was done this way expressly to allow ilvl 55 players to match ilvl 70 players and so on, but that made perfect sense, at the time. With each subsequent patch, PvP gear is outpaced by item levels of PvE gear because PvE gear scales upwards of 20+ levels during the life cycle of a patch (ie: gear level scaled between 180-210 over the course of 3.0 to 3.2). This was the same deal back before 2.4. If they had not provided a sufficient Morale bonus to PvP gear, then the PvP gear would have been just as useless then as it is now because it would have been outstripped by scaling PvE gear that was faster and easier to attain.

Again, this was not an "incredible" advantage. I was never rendered utterly helpless because of it. It was only meant to allow players to compete at the current maximum available gear level. Personally, I don't think that this was a bad thing. It did mean that under-geared players (those below even the current average item level) got left behind, but their disadvantage is no greater than the one they face when playing against up to date PvE sets and only lasted as long as it took them to gear up.

If Morale is returned to its original implementation i190+ PvE gear will no longer be competitive. Only i180 and i205 PvP gear will be viable in i150 sync PvP. You would then be forced to gear up through PvP if you wanted to participate in PvP unless Morale was added to various pieces of PvE gear.

This is not necessarily true. Firstly, item level 190 gear was only an example. That gear is already long outdated in PvE, so advocating to keep it competitive in PvP when most players are already in 220 sets and above is kind of pointless. Regardless, that's neither here nor there. The more important part is that you're working under the assumption that SE would keep the item level sync the same, should the re-implement Morale. They simply could not do that because of the item level 205 PvP sets.

If the item level 180 PvP set was the top end set, then yes. SE could keep the level sync at 150 and still provide a fair battle ground between equally geared PvE and PvP players. Morale advantage would work much the same way it did pre-2.4 in that it would simply be allowing the PvP gear to survive for the life cycle of the current patch and stay competitive with an ever evolving selection of PvE gear. However, now that they've put out a ilvl 205 set, they forced their own hand. The item level sync would have to be adjusted to allow for higher end PvE sets (roughly around item level 230 or above) to be competitive. I would like to hope that SE was aware of that when they implemented the 205 set, but we won't know for sure until they come to a decision on what they want to do.

So very wrong. This very mentality is why Wolf's Den (The Fold) failed hard and was mostly empty within a month after it was released. The survival of competitive game modes is completely dependent on ease of newbie entry and retention. Veterans alone can not sustain PvP content.

We're gonna have to disagree on this one, because I kept playing Wolves Den expressly because there was a gear discrepancy.

I have no doubt that the Ranking system and gear discrepancies played a hand in some players leaving the Fold early. Competition isn't for everyone, so it's not surprising that some people don't stick it out. However, for a lot of us, the fact that Rank 30 allowed for an advantage gave us something to strive for. The seasoned players kept playing for that very reason. What really killed it for a lot of people (myself included), was the repetition of it all. After a while you're just doing the same thing over and over, and you're always playing against the same people. When I was still climbing ranks, that was fine, because I was getting something out of the deal, but once I reached cap there was just nothing to do anymore. In that regard, seasonal Rankings are a welcome improvement, even if it is just a vanity thing and an ultimately futile venture.

You're definitely right that retention (though not necessarily "newbie" retention) is what keeps competitive game modes alive, but you do not retain players by watering down the field and encouraging everyone to hold hands and skip along in perfect equality. That kind of defies the point of competing. What provides true retention is the prospect of rewards and achievements. People need to be encouraged to strive for better standing, be it in skill or gear or winnings. You can't get that encouragement when your potential growth rate is cut out from the knees at the word go.

With that in mind, though, Morale doesn't even necessarily have to be a flat stat increase. There are other options. Iagainsti's list of scaling effects is a good example. Personally, I'd like to see specific Morale attributes for specific jobs on specific pieces, allowing for players to customize what kind of effects they want to bring into the match with them (ie: Wear gloves A for a party defensive boost. Wear gloves B for an Hp boost, etc); though, that's highly unlikely because SE would have to be committed to creating multiple PvP gear sets (including crafted ones) with each new patch. In any case, the options are almost endless. Completely deleting the stat from the game for the sake of keeping everything "fair" and ultimately stagnant in a competitive setting also eliminates whatever possibilities we could have taken advantage off by changing it to work for the game mode. That would just seems like an awful waste to me.