Please Add no bonus option for PF

[Cherie]

Clearing doesn't really mean a whole lot. As human beings we all want some binary to know if we will be successful with various people, but I think we all know that we aren't going to get one. Why do we still pretend there is one that exists?

It's like relationships. When people agree to go out on a date with another person, we try to pretend we will get along with someone because we have some common interest and then the date goes horribly. Instead of just chalking it up to a bad pairing, we want to blame it on like "well they don't really like this thing we shared in common, THEY LIED!".... No, not really. Some people just don't work well together. Same thing with party finder. Both people could be good at a fight and just work poorly together. That's just life. If people want to actually succeed, they just keep trying to or they find someone else to play with. I feel the worst for people that just jump from group to group constantly wanting some magic instant win. It's kind of like going on 100 first dates and just hoping for a magical prince charming instead of actually getting to know anyone or actually trying.

Obviously some pairings just aren't going to work no matter how much you try. However, on my server at least, there are a few notorious people that try to form party finder groups and will disband after a single wipe and start another one and just repeat this process for hours. Sometimes it goes horribly wrong and that's all you can do, but for some people, that's all they do regardless.

[Andrea]

Clearing doesn't really mean a whole lot. As human beings we all want some binary to know if we will be successful with various people, but I think we all know that we aren't going to get one. Why do we still pretend there is one that exists?

It's like relationships. When people agree to go out on a date with another person, we try to pretend we will get along with someone because we have some common interest and then the date goes horribly. Instead of just chalking it up to a bad pairing, we want to blame it on like "well they don't really like this thing we shared in common, THEY LIED!".... No, not really. Some people just don't work well together. Same thing with party finder. Both people could be good at a fight and just work poorly together. That's just life. If people want to actually succeed, they just keep trying to or they find someone else to play with. I feel the worst for people that just jump from group to group constantly wanting some magic instant win. It's kind of like going on 100 first dates and just hoping for a magical prince charming instead of actually getting to know anyone or actually trying.

Maybe its just because Im tired, or maybe its the way you worded it, but none of what you said actually made sense to me at all.

I should work on getting to know people im farming with? Why?

[Cherie]

Maybe its just because Im tired, or maybe its the way you worded it, but none of what you said actually made sense to me at all.

I should work on getting to know people im farming with? Why?

Not really just like, some people are going to work well, some are not. I just mean, it's about trying to figure out which is which. Figuring that out requires like some small bit of watching who is doing what. If you have to kick someone from a group, kick them. Maybe people find it easier to just disband rather than kick people from a failing party finder group. I just think it's kind of a waste of time to completely start over when something can be salvaged. I see leaders just purge groups and start over and over for hours in party finder... It's always like that one name looking for members for hours, with harsher and harsher messages in the comment field as the night wears on so i suppose they aren't getting anywhere.

Also, if you are going to farm something for a few hours with some random people, does it hurt to have some communication going on or getting to know them? Most of the good farm groups in party finder I've been in lasted a while.

[Andrea]

Not really just like, .

On the disband rather than kick point, I've been in some farms where the leader quote "felt uncomfortable kicking just the one/two failing people and decided to just abandon it" so that may explain some of the disbands.

On another note, a lot of the PF asking for clears do so in order to avoid "having to watch who is doing what" as lets face it, more people with clears know what they are doing than those without. Im sure some take this to the extreme and ask for all sort of things but I feel asking just for a clear is not too much to ask for.

Sure if you don't have the clear yet you could send a tell to the leader explaining your situation but the amount of people without a clear and something on farm status is incredibly slim to almost none.

[Almalexia]

Imagine you make a PF looking for a melee job and someone joins on MNK, but switches to MCH without saying anything. You would be disappointed to find you entered the raid one melee shy. You might also be a little upset with the guy who deceived you.

Well, let's suppose you put in the PF comment "no bonus message, please" and you enter the raid with a bonus message in your face. You would be disappointed, and perhaps a little upset that one or more people deceived you--or can't read at least.

PF leader sets the conditions for the party. If you want the conditions to change, just ask the leader. You have nothing to gain by very obviously tricking the party; you will instantly sour everyone's first impression of you and risk getting your butt kicked out of future parties on sight.

I don't know how the forums made this so complicated.

[CyrilLucifer]

snip a dee doo da

I absolutely agree. I often join as a WHM in a PF where one's only looking to fill a slot for WHM (usually it's WHM/AST for one slot and AST/SCH for the second) and tell the leader I can play the roles of both main healing WHM and Noct AST, so he should edit the needed classes in PF to accept any of them so we have a wider pool to draw from. Talking to clarify even minor issues helps everything run more smoothly; even though AST can fill the same role as WHM, it's still respectful to discuss my intentions with the party beforehand.

On the subject of your top line, I was in a PF the other day that had exactly that happen. To avoid storytime, basically, dude was a scumbag and he ended up blacklisted and kicked for reasons that weren't his job change.

Er, back on point. I agree. Even if you're skilled, fibbing about your experience is very similar to being dishonest about which job you're going to play just so you can get a party slot. Just don't do it. Other opportunities will come later, don't ruin everyone else's time.

[Eidolon]

Anyone who is against this option is either,

A) Not understanding the purpose of it
or
B) Doesn't want to have the ability to be carried taken away.


And I'm going to go over the silly reasons why this is.

First, let's take a look at something one poster said - and it's the big 'arguement' (And I coin that term loosely) that a lot of people fall back on. It's the arguement that 'Adding this option to the PF will divide the community!'

Do you know what is funny? It is simply how wrong this statement is. It is simply how short-sighted and blind these people are.

Tell me, what do you think is more likely to create segregation:
A) A system that prevents you from joining a party finder because you do not meet the qualifications
or
B) People who stop using the PF because they'd rather go with their FC/static/LS since they know they wont' be lied to by these people and will see more consistent progress?

And I want you to think long and hard about B, because that is often what people are doing with fights like this because they can't trust the party finder to match them with the people they want to go with.

Secondly, I want to tackle an issue another poster tried to bring up. 'You were new once', which is an arguement that is moreso an appeal to emotion than an appeal to reason.

Remind me again what *you* had before you got lucky enough with a group? Oh yeah.. bonus. Were you lazy, expected a carry and or had no knowledge, and if so, did this all magically change the instant you got your achievement?

First of all, in regards to this, I just want to state how disingenuous you are to suggest that it was 'because they got lucky enough with their group.' I spent over a week creating Learning Phase 2, 3, and then clear attempt parties without any luck. I eventually asked a farm party who only needed my role if they'd like me to go along - and guess what?

It was one of the people who had been in my clear attempts and knew me as a good player. They let me in and I got my clear easily. But I didn't stop doing learning parties after this.

For my static, for example, All 7 of them got the achievement after I Had already cleared and farmed it. Tell me, did they 'Get lucky and clear it'? Did they 'expect a carry' from me? It is quite disrespectful to refer to it as 'luck' for the people who get their clear, and completely misses the point - it is all about effort that people want to see.

Yes, obviously everyone was new once. However, what everyone did was NOT attempt to break into / force their way into PF's in order to get their clear. People - myself included have sent tells to PF leaders and have been given a chance to get their clear (And in my case, we farmed after for a good 2 hours.)

Now, I am not sure about your server, but on my server, there are three types of Party Finders. Farms, Clears, and Learning. Though a lot of people treat Clears and Learning as the same (Even though they shouldn't), these are the ones where a New player bonus would and should remain, until they've done the fight so extensively that it is engrained into their bones. Once the person has it down to a point where they have a low margin of mistakes and have cleared, they should move onto Farms.

People - myself included - will give people the chance to prove themselves in the PF if they show integrity and honesty. But it requires you to match the PF's requirement (In this scenario, Farm*) and to be HONEST. This is something that does not split the community - rather, it brings us together, because we learn the people we can trust. We give eachother a chance. We continue to work together to get our own loot, as well as the loot and clears for others.

The exception to the rule is those who get caught in the transition. As another poster said,

If someone is one of those rare examples that you cite, then they can ask for an exception. I expect they'd probably be granted it, but ultimately it's rightfully the party leader's decision.

[Divine_Intervention]

Big super snip

No, it's not an appeal to emotion, it's an appeal to common sense. See other posts where i've clearly stated people with bonus should ask if they can join, not just hop in. What i'm pointing out is the fact that many assume no bonus == skill, and bonus == ew get the f*** away you horrible noob, when in fact many people with bonus tend to know the fight a lot better (due to spending hours and many parties practicing intrinsic details of the fight).

TL;DR - Bonus does not equal skill-less, no bonus does not = totally competent.

[Lambdafish]

snip

I'll remind you that NOBODY has said that you are bad because you haven't beaten. I respect you for your opinion, but the fact is that we must work with the information given, the one piece of information given, that the player has either cleared or not. If you have cleared, you might suck, but until we go in, there is zero reason to boot someone who has cleared (they'll get booted if its evident they suck), as from face value they meet the requirements.

Someone who has not cleared might be good, but with the facts given, they have not beaten the fight so from a PF stand point, they have not met the requirements, and there is no proof that they have what it takes to farm (in fact counter productive as they havent beaten it once, how are they expected to clear it many times?). Do not get offended by this. There is very little information to go on, and that is the logical thought given the facts presented. If this does not represent you, ADD MORE FACTS, let the party know that you are good enough, let them know how much of the fight you know, and perhaps they will let you in.

This is not a toxicitiy issue, it is a communication issue. If you don't know the fight, make a learning party, get good at the fight, if you know the fight but dont have the practise, join or make a clear party, if you are amazing at the fight but the clear parties arent serving you well, ask POLITELY to join the farm party, this is real common sense, what you are saying is trust nobody, which is counterproductive to everything in a team based game.

[Ashkendor]

when in fact many people with bonus tend to know the fight a lot better (due to spending hours and many parties practicing intrinsic details of the fight).

In this thread, we learn that people that have cleared the fight haven't actually practiced it as much as people that haven't?

This argument makes no sense. Once you've cleared, every single clear after that is further practice at those "intrinsic details of the fight." Every clear builds muscle memory, and every clear has the potential to reveal new little tricks and ways to handle mechanics and potentially salvage botched runs (cause hey we're all human and we all screw up even once we have something on farm). Are there people that get their one clear and then stop? I'm sure there are a few. But to say someone that hasn't cleared the fight potentially knows it better than someone that has it on farm doesn't exactly ring true to me. I know it took several clears for me to really get it down pat as far as the order of mechanics to where I'm not going "ok, what's next?"

TL;DR - Bonus does not equal skill-less, no bonus does not = totally competent.

Nobody is saying it does. I'm not sure how many more times we have to reiterate that. Yes, there are incompetent players that were carried to their clear and there are competent players that just can't get the right party together. Those are a minority, though. Generally speaking, someone that's cleared the fight is simply more prepared to farm it than someone that hasn't. The filter we're asking for is meant for that majority, but nothing can cover every eventuality. Players that are in the non-cleared but skilled category would still be free to either send tells to party leaders asking if they can join, or make their own learning/clear parties.