New Prelim Tank updates

[Syzygian]

snip

I would say that PLD absolutely is preferable over a DRK for the OT slot at this point, in a vacuum anyway. Remember that OTs frequently have to handle the same mechanics that DPS do, and are often denied 100% uptime, making DV and Clem much easier to use combined with the changes.

DRK only has such a stranglehold on the MT slot because, if you have one, you never want them to OT. Its a waste, because the other two tanks can offer all of their utility that they bring in the MT slot in the OT slot with equal or greater ease.

[Februs]

I would say that PLD absolutely is preferable over a DRK for the OT slot at this point, in a vacuum anyway. Remember that OTs frequently have to handle the same mechanics that DPS do, and are often denied 100% uptime, making DV and Clem much easier to use combined with the changes.

By that same point, OT Tanks have to contribute to stringent Dps checks involving add mechanics. To which, Pld's bring almost nothing to the table, especially when self casting which is a dps loss of 100%. Given that the HW fights have been more about Dps checks than actual Raid Mechanics, the utility of Pld's in that position is the absolute lowest among all the tanks (not including the new fights, which I am really hoping are not as bloody stupid as the current ones).

I do agree though. SE has pigeon holed the Tank jobs too much. Drk really needed OT support. When you have a Drk in the group, regardless of what the other tank is, Drk's are MT, because there's really no better option. Pld's are at least get the option of being OT when there is a Drk in the party, so that's nice...

At this point, if there are two things that I would ask for from SE, it is that Drk gets some kind of OT support, and that Pld gets an actual solution to their TP problem instead of just a band-aid. There are several other, little, things that could and should be addressed, but these are the biggest two, and they should have been addressed with this patch.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

I said it in my previous post, as long as PLD + DRK is not a thing, nothing is fixed. EPSECIALLY when w are at a point where people have rerolled into DRK and WAR. Only thing that changed is some DRKs will revert back to PLD. WAR is still the preferred OT, if anything it's because the other two can't OT as well (Because no one that knows a little math can argue WAR's MT mitigation and DPS against the other two).

We are still at a point where out only consideration is the following:

MT: DRK or PLD.

OT: WAR with a crown.

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

[SpookyGhost]

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

One day...

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing. That probably won't happen, though, as it'd be a fight specifically tailored to WAR's kit and we don't need more fights catering to specific jobs.

[Reynhart]

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing.

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

[SpookyGhost]

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then. WAR also has Equilibrium (which they didn't nerf, which is kinda surprising) and SW which are both great for cleaves and busters. Bunch of interesting options available to WAR as MT that could be utilized, though I guess we'll see if that ever is necessary or optimal.

[Reynhart]

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then.

For a 30s timer, you have Sheltron. Sure, it's a one time block, but busters are generally one time hit, so it's not a big issue.
On T13, Flatten is on a 1 minute timer, it's plenty of time to properly rotate your CD.

To be closer to your example, you have Odin. I haven't done it as a WAR, it would interesting to see how many Unchained/Fell Cleave you can use in this fight while having IB for every Sangetall.

Pld's are encouraged to sabotage their already abysmally low dps

Ok, it's lower, but abysmally is a little overdramatizing, don't you think ? Especially with the recent buff potency.

[Phoenicia]

One day...

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing. That probably won't happen, though, as it'd be a fight specifically tailored to WAR's kit and we don't need more fights catering to specific jobs.

That problem shows how "badly" designed DRK and PLD toolkits compared to WAR and then how encounters are designed to cover for those "bad designs" in mind. Currently WAR can mitigate EVERY ENCOUNTER in game better than either of other tanks with its kit. Give or take magical encounters where DRK can get close. WAR does not MT not because the other two are better MTs (WAR is better MT), WAR does not MT because the other two SUCK at OT while they don't do that much worse than a WAR MT.

This is basically me reiterating what I wrote before in other posts under other threads that involve tank balance.

Excess cleaves existed in every encounter from T1 in Binding Coil up to T9 in Second Coil and all the primals that came out during these patches (from Titan HM up to Titan Extreme including Moggle Mog Ex.) with mechanics having tank swap intended. But seeing how people cheesed through those with gear, healer CD coordination or just power through (with WAR proving superior because of higher DPS and less gaps in defense), SE started moving to simultaneous tanking as can be seen with Leviathan and T10 through to 13 where tanks needed to keep 2 mobs away or they kill party or other wise share damage or tanks get destroyed. Instead of "Fixing" PLD to have less CD gaps to keep up with WAR, SE chose to keep both tanks busy or wipe.

"But Phoenicia, PLD CDs are superior to WAR's!" you may ask... But not really, while one on one, PLD has more magnitude only than WAR, but WAR's gapless kit allows them to "open" gaps in order to "combine" CDs for superior effects. For example: Each time PLD "needs" rampart, WAR matches it with just IB, but because WAR can, it would ALWAYS combine IB with something else (ToB, Vengeance, RI, Foresight, cheese, pasta, macaroni). For any case PLD "needs" Sentinel, WAR may lack behind with Vengeance, but it can still throw IB for a superior effect (Sentinel is 40%, Vengeance + IB is 46% + 400 potency heal). Note: I didn't fat finger that, IB ignores defiance penalty, so 300/75% = 400 compared to he rest of its attacks. (Another reason why I can argue WAR MT is NOT outDPS'd by dork MTs).

I will stop before this becomes another massive wall of text though.

[Rei_Fails]

+ 400 potency heal). Note: I didn't fat finger that, IB ignores defiance penalty, so 300/75% = 400

???

It's 300 potency, it's not 400 - 25% via Defiance, therefore ignores Defiance and deals 400 Potency. It's 300 Potency bypassing Defiance.

[Phoenicia]

Eh? To all the posters that keep missing the point where it flies way over their heads. I'm not "bragging" about WAR superiority in every situation just for brag rights.. I don't even WAR. I am just pointing out where the REAL problem lies. People are stupidly approaching this wrong.

You see? The thing is, ANY nerf to WAR's defensive capability will lower its intended role of "tank" and enforces its ALREADY GODDAMN SOLIDIFIED position of OT. You solve nothing when parties are down to "secure a WAR and get any other tank". They don't care who MTs as long as they have a WAR in party.

From the same perspective: Any "buff" to PLD and/or DRK MT potential does NOTHING to the real problem of EVERYONE and their dog wanting a WAR OT in raid and only serves to pigeonhole them into the MT spot and drive people away from PLD+DRK groups.

So, WAR is sitting as king in the OT spot while people will just look for any tank to MT. Yes, including another WAR. This is how badly WAR is pigeonholed into the OT spot. PLD and DRK are just.... "not good enough OT".

Now let's be stupid like most of the hive mind and call for nerfs to the following:

DRK MT DPS and aggro. Move CnS to GCD and have it interrupt combos. Reduce potency of Salted Earth because it's AoE and change Dark Mind and Dark Dance to 90s CD.
PLD defense.. Because I want it so. Make HG a 15 minute CD. Reduce Sentinel to 30% so it's in line with Vengeance and Shadow Wall, it's only fair, right?
Reduce Fell Cleave to 400 potency. Remove the 5% bonus damage from deliverance, access to FC is enough.

Now WAR is no longer the best OT, DRK and PLD are no longer the best MTs. We can use whatever we want! Be happy! I mean everything is balanced and is equal.....ly bad!

Solution to such a dilemma? It's really simple:

1- Make people EQUALLY want a WAR, PLD or DRK MT. Base it entirely on party setup. Just like how a double caster group would rather have a bard over MCH and a DRG +MCH group would want to get more physical (dropping a caster) DPS.

2- Make People EQUALLY want a WAR, PLD or DRK OT. Base it entirely on party setup. Give DRK and PLD OT tools that allows for higher raid performance.

How can the above happen? Simple, don't make PLD and DRK such sucky OTs. That's all there is to it. Fix DRK and PLD OT TP issues. Give DRK and PLD "uses" for their niches when they're OT. A couple of examples that may be good ideas or not: Have Cover work on magic and reduce its CD to 90s. Now PLD can use its Shield from the OT spot. Give DRK a party buff that procs its parry abilities when the other tank blocks/parries.

Part of WAR's "amazing" OT capabilities is its access to its abilities from the OT spot. A lot of WAR's abilities have dual nature (giving both offensive and defensive uses). Also there is NONE of the WAR's abilities that can only function from the MT spot (outside of the 50 potency counter on vengeance) as opposed to PLD/DRK abilities sitting off-CD as long as they're not tanking such as: Shield Swipe, Reprisal, all the defensive CDs and Blood Price.

???

It's 300 potency, it's not 400 - 25% via Defiance, therefore ignores Defiance and deals 400 Potency. It's 300 Potency bypassing Defiance.

Yes, 300 "bypassing Defiance" is 400 when streamlined and compared to the general potency of all WAR's attacks under Defiance.

Here is a short lesson in math:

WAR turns on Defiance: WAR does 25% less overall damage.

WAR hits Butcher Block under Defiance: 280 potency affected by defiance.

WAR hits Inner Beast under Defiance: 300 potency that ignores defiance.

Now Inner Beast compared to Butcher Block is 300 x 1.33 = 300 / 0.75 = 400.

This is exactly like saying DRK deals 400 potency with DA+ Souleater.

If you wanna talk "pure value" DRK deals 400 x 0.8 x 1.15 = 368. And WAR deals 300 x 1.20 = 360. But again, streamlining potencies under tank stances, IB is 400 potency.

( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ

That's the thing though. It really brings up how "bad people are at processing data". I started putting the main point in italics, bold, underline and colored and it still seems to go over their heads. lol. Then they have the audacity to call anyone who disagrees with them "nerds" in a way to insult them.