Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[Khemorex]

the lack of empathy and humanity is so much lacking in this thread , u dont know whats going on in someone else head at the moment u join party finder :P

the rage building up in some people here is astonishing , maybe you should try to rage at something else ^^

i really wished there was a server wide blacklist , so i could blacklist some of the people here and never play with them :P

[Immut]

the lack of empathy and humanity is so much lacking in this thread , u dont know whats going on in someone else head at the moment u join party finder :P

the rage building up in some people here is astonishing , maybe you should try to rage at something else ^^

i really wished there was a server wide blacklist , so i could blacklist some of the people here and never play with them :P

Not sure which side you're referring to, but being bad and refusing to get better shows a lack of empathy. It's a game. You're supposed to at least try to be good at games. More importantly it's a TEAM game, and the team absolutely has a right to be pissed off at a player who isn't even trying. If you aren't trying, then you aren't really playing, you're just watching. And that's what twitch is for.

[Nalien]

Again your trying to treat the symptoms of a larger problem. You "encouraging" best play does nothing.

The larger problem is that the fourth party slot is utterly wasted. The way this game is balanced, you can very often find yourself clearing content without people. Dungeons do not require two DPS IMO, they can easily be cleared with one. Having two, however, just gives us a situation where one can slack off and just get carried through...

Kind of wish they'd just give us a Support role already... There would be less room for slackers then, the Tank would have to be tanking, the Healer healing, the DPS DPSing and the Support supporting, there would be no room for a second DPS to half-ass their way through the game. Arguably this falls apart when we get to Trials and Raids, since we start stacking roles in those, but I'd say by that point the problem would have been fixed. Nobody would be able to get through the game slacking in their role, every DPS will have to DPS properly or they wont be clearing dungeons, because they're the only real DPS and they wont have another DPS to carry them. They'll simply never even get to Trials and Raids without doing their Job properly.

Don't even get me started on the wealth of new encounter types we could even see with a dedicated Support role... Crowd control, a thing? In XIV?! One can dream... A Support role is seriously something they should have been working on for a long time now, it adds plenty to the game and fixes many of the current issues. Would we have a half-assed Bow-mage if Bard was instead turned into an actual Support Job? I don't think so. The issue was always that Bard was the only Job to really fit the role, but they could easily have corrected that with Heavensward. Turn Bard into a real Bard, make Astrologian a Support rather than Healer, bam, two Support Jobs. Not enough? Well, we only ever had two Tanks and Healers for A Realm Reborns run...

[RyuSaarva]

well you don't need tanks either so just use 4 healers?

[Immut]

well you don't need tanks either so just use 4 healers?

you don't need healers. just do it with 4 warriors.

[Arrius]

Not sure which side you're referring to, but being bad and refusing to get better shows a lack of empathy. It's a game. You're supposed to at least try to be good at games. More importantly it's a TEAM game, and the team absolutely has a right to be pissed off at a player who isn't even trying. If you aren't trying, then you aren't really playing, you're just watching. And that's what twitch is for.

I partially blame the relic grinds for this, as the amount of runs you need to acquire the items/tomes you want is unrealistic high, which in return numbs down the emotions and said empathy, detaching you of really caring about someone in there. Because it is just another run in the same dungeon, as 34 times before.

[Immut]

I partially blame the relic grinds for this, as the amount of runs you need to acquire the items/tomes you want is unrealistic high, which in return numbs down the emotions and said empathy, detaching you of really caring about someone in there. Because it is just another run in the same dungeon, as 34 times before.

Honestly I kind of agree. I try to do my best in alexander every time simply because it makes the run go faster but holy shit i am tired of having to go in to every instance with a dump truck to carry all the garbage I get partied with. I don't even know how a full slaying warrior with ukonsvara can do 600 dps, or how ANYONE can do less than 400. I've had bards that were so bad they couldn't kill an add in a1 or a4 by themselves. Different bard each time. I've had tanks and dps pairs that died in quarantine. I've had healers that ONLY use physick and set eos to sic. It's maddening.

[KaitlanKela]

As an aside, I got my BA in biological statistics a long time ago, so I have an inkling of where most "statistics" come from when I see them.

As an 'aside', I got my degree in Mathematics and I'm an actuary (not a long time ago; now). However, I also have common sense. It doesn't take a statistic to see that there's a common conception that bots frequently use the level fifty BLM rotation and that the question could very well have been asked honestly rather than provocatively. So I threw out a 90% number to make a point, and you're going to harp on about it because you have a degree in 'biological statistics' instead while completely ignoring my actual argument.

AGAIN: I would like to say that this particular case is not a great one, as both sides acted in ways that could be construed as juvenile. However, the point stands. Asking people to at least attempt to use the skills the game gives them appropriately is not asking for too much. If they're trying and they can't, that's one thing. If they refuse to try, that's not being a team player in a cooperative multiplayer game and it really is a rude thing to do. Your teammates have a right to be upset. I know I would be irked, prolly wouldn't do anything about it because it's not worth it, but I would be irritated. Some people will say something about it. If you're going to choose to play with a partial toolkit, just be prepared that that is one of the logical outcomes and deal accordingly.

That's literally all I'm saying and all I have ever said. I really don't think it's that controversial? So I don't really know why you're arguing with me so testily.

[The_Greatest_Evil]

the lack of empathy and humanity is so much lacking in this thread , u dont know whats going on in someone else head at the moment u join party finder :P

the rage building up in some people here is astonishing , maybe you should try to rage at something else ^^

i really wished there was a server wide blacklist , so i could blacklist some of the people here and never play with them :P

Please add me to blacklist. I like it.

[Kaurie]

All I got from people like the OP in this thread are "WAAAAHHHH I can't stand long ques so I go as tank or healer to get in more groups. Now I'm grouped with someone not as good as me and playing the class I'd rather be playing WAAAHHHH. I'm better, my epeen sails across the stars themselves!"

The OP was the BRD, not a Healer or a Tank. Regardless, the system in place encourages you to play other jobs, and the only end-game content that is realistic for a secondary are the 60 dungeons. Therefore,it makes perfect sense that the OP may opt to play something other than their primary to mix things up.

You want perfect groups and everyone on the same page? Stop pugging and form your own groups with people you know.

I personally hate statements like these. It really doesn't add anything to the argument, and is merely used to deflect from the problem.

The crux of the issue is that you are going into content willingly accepting you will be seeing anywhere from 1-7 random members who come from all walks of life and game play style. This is the contract you sign going in, nothing more, nothing less.

I am not saying I disagree, but by that logic, we should accept when people are complete jerks in DF. We should be totally happy with people running parsers and calling out DPS. As these are all different play styles people have, and we need to be accepting of each.

Should you want for great members who all do their job to expectation perhaps even above and beyond? Sure that's a great outlook.
Should you expect everyone to play to your standard all the time? No. That's unrealistic.

Indeed, that is precisely my view on it.

Should that crummy DPS comform to your will? Why should he, your not willing to conform to his and you both stand at a stalemate. The option to leave or initiate vote-kick is your two options of recourse in this situation and moving forward choosing who your party with gives you full control over expectations and social accountability for any content. The issue is the lack of urgency and overall apathy towards the subject. Your not going to get anywhere just expecting people to do as you say.

I personally feel you are conforming to the crummy DPSes will whether you like it or not. You're prevented from calling out DPS numbers, if you try to give advice you're often hit with harassment backlash, and the run will go slower to their level.

I really do not like the idea of advocating use of vote kick in this scenario though, just let people enjoy the game. It's unfortunate when you are queued with someone with a totally different mentality, but just suck it up and finish it. They don't deserve the boot.

Speak your voice to the people who enable this behavior rather than the practitioners, get at SE about their lack of encouragment and just lack outright of...

- Proper Party play
- Teaching players mechanics as they level
- Holding players accountable for their actions
- Encouraging preformed activities (The entire DF runs counter to this as well as the bonus system, we are in turn encouraged to run with random people for a bonus to reinforce the solo style of gameplay)
- Lack of fostering community with a heavy emphasis on instant gratification content requiring little to no outside assistance.

It's a lot to swallow and process but the entire games foundation only encourages people to act this way and sure you can be mad at the people who abuse the system but you should also be as mad at the people who push the system that does nothing but encourage it.

I agree, and I'd hope that is what this thread does. To my understanding, the dev team does receive feedback from the forums. I personally do not know of any other way to get the message back to them. This being a long thread means it's likely to be seen (I'd hope).

The people who play Ice Mage should be the least of our worries. Instead of making whiny threads with baseless attention grabbing titles (As debunked by logic it's not just DPS who have low standards, nor is anyone being a slacker really "Acceptable") We should be making well formulated suggestions to SE on how to counter this environment of toxicity and encourage accountability and community building.

Be the bigger person and rise ABOVE the situation and do your damndest to rectify the base problem instead of trying to systematically root out the individual problem cases.

I don't think an Ice Mage was the problem in this thread. That said, there are no such things as Ice Mages in this game, as much as I'd love to have specializations within each role. An Ice Mage is no different than a WHM who queues in as a Cleric-Stance only WHM, expecting the tank to keep himself alive. Or a tank that queues in as a Deliverance-only tank and figures that Titan can pick up the slack. An Ice Mage is indeed pulling lower numbers than the tank, and sometimes the healer, so yes it is passing off their role as a Damage Dealer to one of the other roles.

The standards are definitely set low for DPS more-so than other jobs. If one of my above examples occurred, people would be in uproar. "This tank refused to tank!" or "This healer refused to heal!". However, we coddle damage dealers, because we don't want to create a toxic environment (Mission Succeeded!)

Circling back to your points

- Proper Party play
I would love to see a system that is focused less on just burning trash packs and more focused on coordination and communication.
- Teaching players mechanics as they level
I feel the game already does this, and eases you into mechanics. The issue is that most content (even at 60) allows you to bypass mechanics by either getting carried by other players, or by out-gearing. This is most commonly seen with DPS, due to their being more than 1 damage dealer in a party to pick up the slack.
- Holding players accountable for their actions
Honestly, I think that we need less hard-coded ways of holding each other accountable, and put it more on the player. Allow people to use parsers (and provide API support), and let people call out poor play. This is a much better method of holding someone accountable than fear of being kicked without a word. These player-driven accountable systems are already in place for Healers and Tanks, and work quite well (most healers and tanks know how to properly fulfill their roles at 60).
- Encouraging preformed activities
100% agree, the bonus roulette is extremely frustrating. I like that you can queue in full parties for the higher level stuff now though.
- Lack of fostering community with a heavy emphasis on instant gratification content requiring little to no outside assistance.
Indeed, the only aspect of the game that fits this bill are Raids imo. Having a static runs completely opposite to this point. I think it would be great if more of the game was challenging and had content designed around coordination, to encourage this sort of play.