Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[Vehementi]

Why should we form groups.DF should be serious.Give me a reason why its acceptable to perform poorly with unknown people?Saying because they are unknown is rude & makes you a jerk.And noone asks for the perfection,we ask to give it you max by using your toolkit,& to be open for advice.

Because you will always be at the mercy of RNG pairings no matter what. For better or worse that's what you get from pugging. You don't like those in pug groups don't pug.
Random grouping serious?
Well if trash is already dieing fast enough or too fast to keep stuff off cooldown for the upcoming boss fight. Why blow your heaviest hitters?
'Don't want perfection but want 100% your best...' You are reading what you are typing right? At this point I can't tell if you're sarcastic or not.
The person in question did change their rotation. So they were open to advice. OP admits this. Yet still acting like an ass and risked getting their party killed just to fluff their epeen.

[Odett]

Because you will always be at the mercy of RNG pairings no matter what. For better or worse that's what you get from pugging. You don't like those in pug groups don't pug.

That's what the kick function is for

Well if trash is already dieing fast enough or too fast to keep stuff off cooldown for the upcoming boss fight. Why blow your heaviest hitters?

You're misunderstanding this a bit. We're not talking about saving skills like Raging Strikes, or Dragonfire Dive for a boss fight. There's a difference between holding off on using those on a trash pack that's about to die and not using your skills that you get while leveling.

'Don't want perfection but want 100% your best...' You are reading what you are typing right? At this point I can't tell if you're sarcastic or not.

There is a world of a difference between min-maxing and using all your skills. The least that is required of your job is that you use your skills. It says here that you're a level 40 arcanist. You, for example, would not ignore your DoTs and just Ruin spam.

I agree that it's good that they changed their rotation, but if you get defensive when someone asks you why you're not using a skill like Enochian, that redefines your entire rotation, you need to get your attitude checked.

[Tanathya]

All I got from people like the OP in this thread are "WAAAAHHHH I can't stand long ques so I go as tank or healer to get in more groups. Now I'm grouped with someone not as good as me and playing the class I'd rather be playing WAAAHHHH. I'm better, my epeen sails across the stars themselves!"

You want perfect groups and everyone on the same page? Stop pugging and form your own groups with people you know.

Or maybe let's not expect to get carried as a general rule. How rude.

[Kuwagami]

Actually right now I really don't understand you or people like you and I doubt I ever will. You quoted me, I clearly said if a dps can kill the enemies with their basic rotation go for it. How is this not understanding what a dps role is? They kill stuff, that's what I said. I don't expect anyone to agree with me. They are the main damage dealers in a dungeon. I really don't know where you got this "don't understand what a dps job is" bit from.

Well, you just once again showed that you don't understand what a dps job is. espeially with this :

I clearly said if a dps can kill the enemies with their basic rotation go for it. How is this not understanding what a dps role is?

If we are to go down to the basics of the trinity, all of the jobs can dps (damage per second). Tanks can, Healers can, and those that we call Damage Dealers obviously can.

Now then, what is the difference ?
Tanks have to focus on survivability and aggro. Dps comes after it (or with it in the case of FFxiv).
Healers have to focus on keeping everyone alive. Dps comes after it.

Damage Dealers have othing to focus on but doing damage. Therefore, their focus is to deal as many damage as they can as fast as possible. If a tank job is to lower incoming damage as much as possible, a DD job is to increase outgoing damage as much as possible.

If you prefer a better term, you might call them whatever pops in your mind when you picture a barbarian mowing down enemies. Personnaly, I used to call them "burners" back when I was learning the basics because they are indeed supposed to burn the enemy's HP bar.


Now that things are defined, onto the subject :

Your view of a dps is "killing stuff". Not quite. This is everyone's job as a group. A dps job is to do that as fast as possible. Thus, it is to use the maximum out of their skillset in order to minimize the time needed to kill everything in sight. By this fact, a mentality like :

If a dps can kill the enemies with their basic skill rotation go for it, I really don't care as long as it dies.

is NOT what a dps should strive for. If people don't want to put the effort to maximize their damage output, they might as well play tank or healer (note that it would drastically change the balance between jobs in DF content ).



Of course, this is only the theory. You can't expect anyone to go full throttle all of the time. That's fine. But even if not doing 100% everytime, doing your best should STILL be the #1 goal of any dps. This goes by researching what your optimal rotation is to maximze your damage output (by yourself or on the internet if you don't have the time to do the work by yourself (it takes a lot of time to pinpoint every little detail of a rotation), practicing said rotation to make it enter your muscle memory as you don't want to have to focus on what key to hit next in a duty, and then using this rotation everytime in duties to minimize the time spent on useless stuff like sluggishly and painfully moving through trash mobs.

Even if not perfect, it will still be more effective than AFKing half of your dungeon because you think 1-2-3 is enough because "heh, stuff dies, right ?"

Not to mention that it is a lot more satisfying to master your job and do your best at it than just not caring at all and do whatever because it is the bare minimum asked by the game.



TL;DR :
The Holy Trinity consists of 3 branches : Survive - Help - Kill. While the 2 first branches are no-brainers (but one could be surprised about how hard these concepts seem to be to some people), the last one isn't self-explanatory. Killing only isn't the real job you have to do, but rather you have to do it the fastest way possible. This is your responsibility as a damage dealer, and you have accepted it the moment you chose a job related to this role. If it doesn't suit your tastes, by all means, you are free to pick a job in the other 2 branches.



TL;DR 2 :
DPS is NOT the role you chose as a default because you don't want responsibilities (or being yelled at when you fail). DPS IS a role with a lot of responsibilities, and you'll get yelled at if you fail. So step up your game, stop stroking your ego (or anything else), focus on the game and do your best.

[Reisui]

snip

I was not talking about the BLM here, but in general. Everyone should be using his available tools and be open to advice, I'm also still learning stuff.
And no being perfect and give it your 100% are not the same.

As for why I pug? I pug since I have different play time than most of my friends, and we don't always need to do everything together.

Also, I loved to be paired up with RNG players, it's a good way to learn and interact with people, even if it's short.

Again DF should be taken seriously, you do it to get a random group to do the duty, not to mess around and be a burden.

[Tanathya]

You want perfect groups and everyone on the same page? Stop pugging and form your own groups with people you know.

Actually, why don't YOU form a group with those you know if you want to laze around? Why are you blaming US just because we want everyone to pull their own weight to the best of their capabilities? No, just no and you're wrong no matter how you look at it.
You can have a laugh and play however the hell you want with your friends, but try and do that with random, unknown people, and you'd be so rude you would not believe it. Which is the case.

[Kuwagami]

The very fact this so called warrior can can output same dps as your avarage ranged dps, makes this so called dps role total nonsense. My mind will never grasp this illogicality. If im labeled as DPS i want to have a capability to outdps tank/healer 5fold with no extra strain on my part when we fill our roles exclusively and 7fold when im expert at my role

Agree. But the game isn't designed that way, and DPs only have 20% more damage than tanks (in full OT situation) here.

Anyway active combat healing in general imho is relic of dice throwing tabletop games that at one point need to be eliminated in future. Because once full immersion gaming becomes reality (who knows how far in future it will happen) i cannot laugh strong enough at most laziest ever job that is healers - hystericaly blabing some incantation and waving some oddly shaped cane/stick. Fantasy or not, but healing as number jugling on hp bar is the biggest flaw in rpg logic, or rather it is the one role that was created solely to instill the sense of fighting in onedimensional vector of heroism.

Healing is NOT the laziest job around. That aside, what is the difference between a healer casting and a mage casting, apart the fact that the chants don't have the same effect ?
(not to mention, good luck doing anything as a mage if you don't have someone backing you up. Chanting while walking is the least credible thing ever)

A-RPGs all have an over-reliance on potions and stuff like that, negating team work most of the time, because team mates just aren't needed. I'll take active healing 100% of the time.

Speak your voice to the people who enable this behavior rather than the practitioners, get at SE about their lack of encouragment and just lack outright of...

- Proper Party play
- Teaching players mechanics as they level
- Holding players accountable for their actions
- Encouraging preformed activities (The entire DF runs counter to this as well as the bonus system, we are in turn encouraged to run with random people for a bonus to reinforce the solo style of gameplay)
- Lack of fostering community with a heavy emphasis on instant gratification content requiring little to no outside assistance.

It's allot to swallow and process but the entire games foundation only encourages people to act this way and sure you can be mad at the people who abuse the system but you should also be as mad at the people who push the system that does nothing but encourage it.

There are a few options possible, but I largely doubt SE would ever put them in game because that would go against what they did so far :

- Have a parser in game. A real one.
- Subsequently, allow us to judge people on their performance. JP people do their best not only because it's their culture, but also because they don't want to end up in the "do not ever play with this guy" lists. While I do not approve the process (too easily abused and do not really account for personnal progression), the fact is that it works. By allowing us to judge the performance of the other people (still ban harassment, but not for simple facts like "you are not doing the best you could here") it would encourage to strive for better results individually.
- Favor the grouping inside a server rather than cross-server. Not only it encourages to do your best (the people you play with aren't strangers you'll never ever meet again), but it also upgrades the community as a whole in the servers. And eases group creation later by creating networks.
- Block tiers of content behind skill gates. Use the Training Halls for that. Can't beat level 5 ? Can't access Thordan Ex, you'll be a burden. Plain, simple. Won't prevent people to slack, but will prevent people who just can't do it to hinder the others. And thus they'll want to improve to be able to go in the content, and they will TRAIN. That's what a Training Hall is for, right ?
- Alternatively, improve the skill baseline to clear content so that people can't breeze through content with 40% of their job's possibilities.

Of course none of this is perfect, and can be abused, and whatnot, but it would show a will to improve the skills of the players, instead of the "huh ? You aren't good enough for Alexander savage ? How is that ?" that we got.

'Don't want perfection but want 100% your best...' You are reading what you are typing right?

Just wanted to say that "one's best" isn't "perfection". Everyone has a margin of progression to reach perfection, even when they do their current best.

[Jynx]

I also wanted to point out the hilarious circular arguments aren't adding to the discussion. Neither side is wrong but as it stands people are allowed to play however they want. Your feelings and expectations be damned. But do continue to argue against the symptoms rather than discuss the cure.

[Tanathya]

I also wanted to point out the hilarious circular arguments aren't adding to the discussion. Neither side is wrong but as it stands people are allowed to play however they want. Your feelings and expectations be damned. But do continue to argue against the symptoms rather than discuss the cure.

I've already discussed the cure, which is to encourage everyone to do their best, and to stop this "DF is for lulz" mentality. As long as people excuse themselves, that ain't gonna end.

[Jynx]

I've already discussed the cure, which is to encourage everyone to do their best, and to stop this "DF is for lulz" mentality. As long as people excuse themselves, that ain't gonna end.

Again your trying to treat the symptoms of a larger problem. You "encouraging" best play does nothing.

Me shouting to the rooftops that we should all hold hands does not make peace on earth. Action needs to be taken and as we lack the power to take action we must point our attention away from the individuals who your words fall on deaf ears and focus on those who have the power to make real changes.

The developers.

People can and will continue to slack in every role in the duty finder because they have no incentives to do otherwise. These types of people can't be reasoned with so your wasting your effort even trying.

Your "Cure" can do nothing. It's not a cure it's trying to wish the problem away.