Don't be "that DPS"

[nitaZ28]

...Please don't act like the tank is the only one responsible for aggro maintenance; you're in a party so working together in every aspect is recommended.

But this isn't the way "that" DPS (which let's be honest, is 99% of the DPS players because they are lazy and irresponsible. That's why they don't play a tank or healer, but that's another discussion) thinks.

"It's the tank's job to keep aggro, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

Along with

"It's the healer's job to heal me, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

This encompasses the entire litany of DPS issues, and why most tanks/healers don't like em and only tolerate them to get the dungeon done faster.

[DarkerOrange]

But this isn't the way "that" DPS (which let's be honest, is 99% of the DPS players because they are lazy and irresponsible. That's why they don't play a tank or healer, but that's another discussion) thinks.

"It's the tank's job to keep aggro, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

Along with

"It's the healer's job to heal me, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

This encompasses the entire litany of DPS issues, and why most tanks/healers don't like em and only tolerate them to get the dungeon done faster.

and the award for the most incorrect, sweeping generalisation goes to....

[Almalexia]

But this isn't the way "that" DPS (which let's be honest, is 99% of the DPS players because they are lazy and irresponsible. That's why they don't play a tank or healer, but that's another discussion) thinks.

"It's the tank's job to keep aggro, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

The multipliers on enmity skills are very generous. The burden of enmity is on nobody but the tank - you've seen the vast gulf of enmity between tanks and the rest of the party when enmity skills are used effectively. DPS and healers don't stand a chance unless the tank is undergeared, missing the targets or not using enmity skills/stance.

It's easy to keep hate, but it's even easier to go on a forum and blame everybody else for your enmity issues.

[Februs]

The multipliers on enmity skills are very generous.

That's true for War's and Drks, but not Pld's. Their enmity multipliers are substantially lower than the other two tanks on ALL of their enmity generation moves. That's a fact. The numbers were outed a long time ago. As much as most of the Tank community understand why SE came to that decision, it doesn't really work as intended and definitely does not fit the current meta of the game.

Pld's also lack a spam-able AoE that does dmg. CoS is oGCD and pitifully weak, and Flash is a joke compared to Overpower or Unleash. It's the reason that Pld's often have the hardest time holding hate, especially if the Dps out-gear them by even a small amount.

That being said, you are right that if a level 60 player is using their tool kit correctly they should, most certainly, have no problems keeping enmity at equal gear levels. That includes Pld.

That aside, you are wrong to say that Threat management is solely the tank's responsibility. The tanks carry most of the responsibility for managing hate, that's true, but not all. Everyone can pull. Everyone generates threat. Everyone is responsible for their actions when in a party. There is no excuse for a Dps to be power focusing a mob that the tank has not even attacked yet, let alone blaming the tank for not holding hate on that mob. There's no excuse for 2 Dps to split their dmg output across multiple mobs (which slows things down considerably) and dividing the tanks attention instead of working together. There's no excuse for Dps to run off and face-pull mobs either by accident (in which case you are not paying attention to your position) or on purpose (in which case you're being a dick and should have Q'd as a tank). Just because you are Dps does not mean that you get a free pass to not pay attention.

This is a team-based game. You're supposed to work with your party, not against it. The Tanks and Healers should not feel like they are baby-sitting single-minded Dps who are only focused on themselves, especially considering the Tanks and Healers are the only thing stopping the Dps from getting ground up into red paste.

[AnimaAnimus]

It's the reason that Pld's often have the hardest time holding hate, especially if the Dps out-gear them by even a small amount.

idk, I have had all 3 tanks be able to hold hate without me getting past yellow on my i207 smn when they are barely breaking the i190 mark and then I have tanks that cant hold anything off my with a completely upgraded i210 set. So it really does just come down to skill in the end imo.

If you are learning (ie in a pre 50 dungeon) or really trying that's one thing and I will cut you some slack, but by the time you are in a lvl 60 dungeon, if you don't know how to play your job that's on you not me.

[FunkyBunch]

There's no excuse for 2 Dps to split their dmg output across multiple mobs (which slows things down considerably) and dividing the tanks attention instead of working together.

This is not true. As a BLM I will do far lower DPS and have more missed spells if I target the same target as everyone else. A few lucky crits by the tank and a melee may kill the mob from more than half health during the time it takes me to cast Fire4. Which makes me miss a cast.
I specifically try and pick a mob the other DPS are not targeting to keep my DPS up. I do occasionally rip a mob away from the Tank, but I can handle it by myself. Just manaward/manawall and nuke it dead while the Tank can blissfully stay doing exactly what he was doing before.

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

[Februs]

idk, I have had all 3 tanks be able to hold hate without me getting past yellow on my i207 smn when they are barely breaking the i190 mark

I did say that all tanks, including Pld, should not have a problem if they know how to use their kit properly.

Regardless, that does not change the fact that Pld's do have the lowest enmity multiplier. It's a tested fact. For this reason, Pld's have to make concessions to compensate when they are out-geared by the Dps. For example, they may have to spam Flash a few more times than normal. They may have to reduce their Goring Blade DoT application or Royal Authority potency in favour of strictly using RoH. Doing this is not really an issue of skill, because it doesn't take a lot of skill to cycle one combo and rotate Flash in-between. They'll hold hate just fine, but a Pld is not optimizing their role when they are forced to play like that.

That said, knowing when and where to prioritize a stronger focus on enmity is definitely a matter of skill and experience. Given how inefficient Pld threat generation is, all Pld's have to be constantly aware of their current enmity and make adjustments as necessary. Enmity constantly looms over that job.

[Februs]

This is not true. As a BLM I will do far lower DPS and have more missed spells if I target the same target as everyone else.

AoE Dps and DoT applications are an exception, and those exceptions do not really matter much for enmity, assuming you are swapping targets strategically.

You said that you have to swap around 50% of the mob's Hp. By that time the Tank should have at least used more than one AoE threat generating move or flat out rotated an enmity strike to the target you are swapping to. Crisis averted. The only problems are when Dps start their rotations on separate targets, or if the target you are swapping to is one that the Tank has not yet landed a hit on. Swapping targets is fine, but you should be conscious of how much hate the tank has on the target you are planning to attack. Carelessly going after the target that has the least threat gen from the tank is irresponsible, especially when there are other mobs with higher enmity in the group that you could have switched to.

You're also confusing personal Dps for party Dps. You're right that keeping your cast alive is the correct decision for maintaining your personal Dps. However, if you are grabbing peripheral hate from the tank by attacking targets that the Tank has yet to establish enmity on, then you are forcing the tank to split their dps (yes, tanks do deal damage). Further, the combined Dps potency of multiple players is higher than any one player can generate on their own, especially if you account for buffs. For example, a Drg's piercing buff from Impulse Drive does absolutely nothing for a Brd if they are attacking a totally different target from the Drg.

Now, if you are simply switching targets strategically to maintain your combo, then that's totally fine. It means you are being conscious of your environment and optimizing your role. However, 2 Dps who start Dps'ing on 2 different targets at the start of a pull are not optimizing the party dps or overall time. They might be optimizing their personal dps, but that doesn't mean they're going any faster.

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

This is often a Dps issue as well.

When I tank Arboretum, I am all for pulling the whole hallway and skipping the adds, but not all Dps are good enough to make that pull. These days, almost every Dps team I run into thinks they're amazing, but the sad fact is that most of them cannot burn the adds fast enough to avoid Final Stings. Tanks can hold those stings off by using their ultimate defense (Hallowed Ground, Walking Dead, Holmgang), but that defense lasts a maximum of 10 seconds (much less if you are War, and a Drk's Walking Dead can be instantly canceled if the healer doesn't notice it and heals them to full). If the Dps are slow, then there is no point to trying to make a full run.

[firstsin]

These days, almost every Dps team I run into thinks they're amazing

I agree with you on this. Saying that the only scenario where tanks can have aggro issue is pre-50 duties.

Beyond that tanks have more than enough skills to generate snap aggro. your comment about DPS not being effective in a party can be turned around and argued against a tank who fails to not understand how to engage a group of mobs and how to hold aggro.

I have seen many scenarios where the DPS have held back, the tank blew through all of his CDs, the mobs are still alive and the healer is OOM

A tank that cannot hold aggro is not the responsibility of the DPS, it is just as likely the healer will sooner or later rip aggro simply by healing as well.

[nitaZ28]

You said that you have to swap around 50% of the mob's Hp. By that time the Tank should have at least used more than one AoE threat generating move or flat out rotated an enmity strike to the target you are swapping to. Crisis averted. The only problems are when Dps start their rotations on separate targets, or if the target you are swapping to is one that the Tank has not yet landed a hit on. Swapping targets is fine, but you should be conscious of how much hate the tank has on the target you are planning to attack. Carelessly going after the target that has the least threat gen from the tank is irresponsible, especially when there are other mobs with higher enmity in the group that you could have switched to.

I'm gonna be honest with you here, Februs: What you just said would require thought, consideration, and mindfulness by a DPS. That's harder to find than a virgin at a bar.