Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Bled]

finally some one gets it!

I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

I can feed you guys more and more objective proof however i cant make you see it. kinda like that old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink".

[Konachibi]

I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

[Bled]

I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

Just like immersion there are varying degrees, and my original post never said otherwise except for i wanted a more Hardcore experience that SE dished out in FF11.

As much as i disliked WoW i never said the end game was not hardcore.

[Pandastirfry]

Camping is preparing, the points between battle that include stigmatizing for the next battle... anything can sound bad if you define it incorrectly.

If you really want to use a theme park as an example then here you go:

Top Hill Dragster, longest wait for a roller coaster - Hardcore roller coaster enthusiasts, more complex, viewed as more of a thrill

Gemini, extremely short wait for ride - casual roller coaster, not as complex, a moderate thrill.

Like i said earlier i can play Hello Kitty Island Adventure hardcore, but the game its self is not hardcore.

Supply and demand is essential to any economy... RMT's are the problem not supply and demand..

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

[Konachibi]

That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

But in WoW it's not hard to level (quite the opposite in fact), it can be solo'd up to end-game content (within 2 weeks), it doesn't have a high learning curve (just a high perfection curve), there isn't tonnes of camping, you don't have to invest a great deal of time into the game and the economy was just like a normal economy, good stuff was high price, bad/useless stuff was low price.

None of it fits into your description of a hardcore game.

[Bled]

Your examples are terrible, a casual roller coaster rider may decide that they want to ride the big boy coaster too, and a hard core would go on both.

here's the deal, a thing is not hard core, a person is hard core.

If you play hello kitty hard core...guess what you're a hard core Hello kitty player (wow that would be something to be proud of)

if you play FFXIV hard core, Huzzah you're a hard core FFXIV player.

if you play FFXI hard core.....okay by now you get my drift.
So there you go there's your time investment that is one of your criteria for hard core games...

Lots of camping and preparation, well if you're a Hard core hello kitty player, you're going to prep for litter box cleaner corner or whatever goes on there...

High learning curve, usually hard cores make game mechanics out to be way more complex than they actually are, so I'm leaving this one alone.

hard to level: Hard Core hello kitty players get max level in a week bro, wanna try to do it in 3 days!, something tells me a hello kitty game would be hard to level in...mostly because it's hello kitty

and economy based on supply and demand...every mmo has this, even Team Fortress 2. and as to RMT...buddy that is supply and demand in it's purest form for an MMO.
There you go, by your criteria Hello Kitty Adventure Island is a hard core game!

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

[quantumsaint]

The point I'm trying to make here, is that FFXI didn't have complex game mechanics. What it had was bog-standard gameplay for a late '90's early '00's MMO, it was really no different from Ultima or Everquest, it was just set in Final Fantasy Millieu and had time sinks out the wazoo. most of the "FFXI was hardcore, FFXI was better...blah blah blah" is fueled largely by nostalgia, not anything actually concrete.

Time invested can be a component of a "hardcore" game, but in the case of XI, you put in a lot of work for very little reward. Drop rates were ridiculous (0 of 200 for the Monster Signa...wooo HARDCORE!!) and you spent so much time waiting, no not playing, literally sitting on your butt in Jeuno waiting for something...anything to happen.

and really I'm not complaining about something taking a lot of work or time to get done (ask me how many times I've killed Arthas in WoW...if you guessed 0 you'd be right) what I'm taking exception to is this rose colored glasses look to the sins of XI, there was no big reward at the end of those tunnels...it usually was an oncoming train of further grind

1/1 on Monster Signa. Then I killed him again years later a couple times when he was no longer camped and got it again on the 4th or 5th kill. The thing about algorithms is that they are unchanging. You can flip a coin and a have a 50% chance of it coming up heads or tails, but when it lands on tails you don't have a better chance of it being heads on the next flip, the percentage remains the same. I'm sorry for your luck.

[Bled]

But in WoW it's not hard to level (quite the opposite in fact), it can be solo'd up to end-game content (within 2 weeks), it doesn't have a high learning curve (just a high perfection curve), there isn't tonnes of camping, you don't have to invest a great deal of time into the game and the economy was just like a normal economy, good stuff was high price, bad/useless stuff was low price.

None of it fits into your description of a hardcore game.

i said end game... early game is redounclusly easy and spoon fed to you.

The only thing that makes me feel WoW is less of a hardcore experience versus FF11 is that fact that WoW instanced everything which is exactly one of the reasons why it fails as hard as it does now.

[Pandastirfry]

lol a casual player can play a hardcore game... i never said otherwise. my point went right over your head. and my roller coaster analogy applies perfectly if you want a hard core experience as a casual roller coaster rider you can get in line for the top hill dragster that dose not change the fact the the roller coaster is hardcore...

if all games followed your logic then we would live in a world with no criteria by which judge, base, or make a game. SE could give us a blank piece of paper and say welp you make the game what you want it to be so there you go, you make your own fun. I all ready stated you can be a hardcore player and play casual games and visa versa but games can be labeled as hard core and casual too.

no every MMO has varying degree of supply and demand, but im sure you don't understand value. RMT's need to be stopped not the economy... you are at this point arguing to argue and its getting down right bad.

your point didn't go over my head...it went over yours.

I used your criteria...you know the ones you posted up thread, the ones you said made a hard core game. the problem is you criteria is so vague and can be applied to anything that you basically said yourself that every game is hard core if it meets the most arbitrary of criteria, Hell you even agreed that WoW was a hard core game.

I'm done with this, you don't even know what you're saying anymore.

[Konachibi]

1/1 on Monster Signa. Then I killed him again years later a couple times when he was no longer camped and got it again on the 4th or 5th kill. The thing about algorithms is that they are unchanging. You can flip a coin and a have a 50% chance of it coming up heads or tails, but when it lands on tails you don't have a better chance of it being heads on the next flip, the percentage remains the same. I'm sorry for your luck.

Know this one.

0/20 on Slithery Sykes yesterday for the shield. Previous attempt last week was 1/5.

1/50 (possibly more) on Barometz for the Lancer weapon.

2/6 on the Puk NM in Thanalan for the mask.