Hardcore is not a dirty word

[Bled]

finally some one gets it!

I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

I can feed you guys more and more objective proof however i cant make you see it. kinda like that old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make them drink".

[Konachibi]

I chalk people dismissing premises as subjective as just plain lazy.

especially when those same people are given objective proof and they say "nopeeeeeee i dont seez it".

I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

[Bled]

I always saw hardcore in a different way though.

Like on WoW some of my guild were 'hardcore' raiders. They'd be online each and every day getting the right gear, all the right stats and enchants, all the right skills, all the right talents trees, then doing the same raid all the time, practicing till they eventually got it right and won. Heck even I did, lost count how many times we all went into Icecrown Citadel, spending hours and hours wiping on Sindragosa trying to get it right.

That's how I see hardcore, it wasn't waiting or supply and demand or anything like that. It was trying your damned hardest to push yourself to the limit, doing everything you can to push forward and make it to the end.

So to me a hardcore game isn't defined by the content it gives you, it's just something that gives you a means to push yourself and focus on accomplishing difficult goals.

That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

Just like immersion there are varying degrees, and my original post never said otherwise except for i wanted a more Hardcore experience that SE dished out in FF11.

As much as i disliked WoW i never said the end game was not hardcore.

[Konachibi]

That sounds hardcore to me... i don't know why you would think i would say otherwise, what you said fits the bill of hardcore but so does FF11. All that you just said insert FF11 there and bam there you have it.

But in WoW it's not hard to level (quite the opposite in fact), it can be solo'd up to end-game content (within 2 weeks), it doesn't have a high learning curve (just a high perfection curve), there isn't tonnes of camping, you don't have to invest a great deal of time into the game and the economy was just like a normal economy, good stuff was high price, bad/useless stuff was low price.

None of it fits into your description of a hardcore game.

[Bled]

But in WoW it's not hard to level (quite the opposite in fact), it can be solo'd up to end-game content (within 2 weeks), it doesn't have a high learning curve (just a high perfection curve), there isn't tonnes of camping, you don't have to invest a great deal of time into the game and the economy was just like a normal economy, good stuff was high price, bad/useless stuff was low price.

None of it fits into your description of a hardcore game.

i said end game... early game is redounclusly easy and spoon fed to you.

The only thing that makes me feel WoW is less of a hardcore experience versus FF11 is that fact that WoW instanced everything which is exactly one of the reasons why it fails as hard as it does now.