PLD 4.0

**Launched** · 01-14-2016 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

I run out of TP in about 2:15, thanks to my 2.4s GCD.

How do you manage that? I got to around 2:55 with a 2.46gcd, and from what I remember I got to around 2:35 with a 2.38gcd.

**RiisWolf** · 01-14-2016 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

I run out of TP in about 2:15, thanks to my 2.4s GCD. Unlike DRK, if I go dry I don't have the luxury of wasting some GCDs spamming Unmend at stuff to keep threat up, because PLD has only has COS and Shield Swipe as "free" skills. I also can't drop Grit and use Blood Weapon to buy back some TP.

PLD's TP consumption is on target with WAR and DRK, but has no way to recover it under sustained load.

Takes me 3 minutes to run completely dry at 2.4, having use Lob only once and applying gore blade just before it falls off. Indefinitely if I start popping stoneskin for defense or clemency if someone is hurt bad. Hell I have more time when bosses become untouchable. The problem here is that people don't realize it is not week 1 of Savage anymore. Back when it as released it wasn't even 6 weeks and 200/210s came out that same week, it was impossible for anyone to be decked out in full 190s at the time, which naturally means since savage drops 210s, you were a too weak to do things normally. So you had to make up for it by putting up a healer to DPS full time, usually a whm , maximize power for tanks and/or cut PLD from the equation and neglect anything and everything that got between you and your numbers, even when there is a clear danger those numbers dropping anyway. PLDs run out of TP just sit, like they never learned clemency or better yet stoneskin. Even DRKs just sit there out of TP never ever using unmend. Screw defense , DPS was entirely the issue. And look at what happened. Months later everyone can be decked out in 200s and 210s and they still love to pretend its week 1: where everyone is so weak they must rely on healers to fight and tanks to forsake defense for the sake of pushing numbers, when you don't have to anymore. Heck SE gave the people who want Shield Swipe to be an OGCD just like Reposte, and look at whats happening. And we have the same people wanting the oaths to be oGCD, when we all know SE will put a long recast on them, and the best part is these probably the same players who always spout everything is fine with timing. But again, lets ignore that for the parses.

I have one person here who will risk the likely of being interrupted for healing for mitigation, you do not try to mitigate damage by doing it AFTER its been done, not to mention that's the healers job to mitigate after damage is dealt. The tank is should mitigate damage before the hit so that its less work for healers making it easier to do their job and/or DPS.

If you run out of TP then just use stoneskin, or anything! Just be doing something, instead of waiting for a NIN/BRD/MCH/AST to do it for you.

Also, to be on topic:
Would be rad for PLD to have their TP costs and set up like the Speedy archetypes(MNK/NIN) and make them fast strikers their GLD story makes them out to be. They even have the fastest auto attack already.
And please don't change the oaths to oGCD, I'd very like to switch freely instead of being stuck in one for 15 seconds or a possibly worse penalty than already is for them.

**Shurrikhan** · 01-14-2016 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

snip

Using Clemency as a TP-measure only provides you with 1.8 GCDs per minute. Interruption also keeps this from being useful as just a 'tossing-one-out-there' measure if MTing.

That said, no spell can be interrupted in the time when movement would not have done the same. For me, that's nearly a second. For a skilled PLD, that's a fairly large window by which to recover health via Clemency from a tank-buster without Clemency being interrupted. The problem, in my opinion, is the MT limitations aside from just the interruption, namely that you cannot block, parry, or AA while casting. This leaves a pairing with Shelltron impossible, and Stoneskin on a STR tank more likely to cost health on self-cast than to save any.

I have yet to see a DRK who sits at 0 TP without casting Unmend. Most I see, if stance-dancing, will start using it early (around 120) so that there's no chance of bottoming out during Blood Weapon.

Completely agreed in terms of Oaths and the limitations that would almost certainly be worse for PLD than WAR due to Shield Oath's more immediate benefits if the Oaths were made oGCD. Copying WAR there would likely cause more harm than good, and definitely wouldn't feel very PLD-like, either. (Not an intrinsic matter, due to taking from Warrior or anything like that, but simply incidental to the mechanics Warrior is currently using if taken basically as is, though likely with added penalties due to Oath's superiority (functioning as if at 5 stacks at all times, instantly granting eHP, etc.); being locked out of a defensive stance for 12 to 15 seconds just does not feel like a Knight to me.)

[To be on topic:]
This. It's kind of sad, but Speed is really the only noticeable gameplay-changing stat we have outside of Crit-procs on Bard, Arcanist, and Scholar's Adlo. We aren't encouraged to double-weave nearly as much as DRK, but we also have some of the shortest animations, leaving us feeling like we're just sitting there after our non-finisher animations, Fast Blade and Savage Blade especially. More importantly, PLD is the one tank that feels, at least to me, like it shouldn't have to cater towards the highest potency attack at all times. Whereas pure Damage or Critical Strike would favor Goring Blade and Royal Authority in that descending order, Speed does nothing for single-target Goring Blade and effectively reduces the gap between Royal Authority and Rage of Halone, slightly, adding more control and opportunities. For instance, a 2.5 GCD PLD can replace GB every 3rd combo, clipping 1.5 seconds. A 2.4 GCD used to have the option for a perfect reapplication by using one Swipe per GB, but now simply reapplies every 3rd combo without any breaks, clipping 3 seconds, a guaranteed tick loss. If we were to drop to a 2.25 to 2.10 GCD, it could be every fourth combo, losing only 3 seconds or less, possibly not even a tick. One more RA or Rage of Halone, and able to maintain 4 DoTs on trash. Not as strong, potentially, as a pure damage buff, but if TP costs were adjusted it would certainly be more interesting.

_______________________________________________

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

That said, it'd be red if Paladin got a circle slash (or a simple cleave). I miss that attack from 1.0.

So many 1.0 GLD skills worth missing... Not many that fit, of course, but a lot of strong stuff there, especially if adapted for the current game. Heck, the new Goring Blade kind of looks like the perfect animation for the cast-speed slowing Howling Blade.

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

What in the world are Paladins doing to run out of TP in less than 2 minutes??? It makes absolutely no sense as to how players play that job and focus on being overly offensive, to the point they neglect using stoneskin and clemency. Not to mention there are tons of bosses that make themselves untouchable, or the walk between mobs.

Use MP to let your TP regenerate or play another class actually GEARED for DAMAGE!!!

If those classes that are "geared for damage" include DRK and WAR by comparison to PLD then something's a bit wrong here. PLD's utility simply isn't strong enough to make up for the imbalance in other tank capacities (AoE damage, AoE threat, TP sustain, and especially MT ST dps). Opportunities to use its utility, in general, are similarly underwhelming in the current state of game. We could buff either that utility or that damage, or maybe even adjust the state of game (?), but for a job to be purposely not 'geared for damage' while being generally balanced would require that they are still contributing similar raid damage through some other means, and/or some really strong safety net. Personally, I'd personally like PLD to stay (or rather, become more) unique, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see near-parity in most tank capacities.

**Februs** · 01-15-2016 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I have one person here who will risk the likely of being interrupted for healing for mitigation, you do not try to mitigate damage by doing it AFTER its been done, not to mention that's the healers job to mitigate after damage is dealt. The tank is should mitigate damage before the hit so that its less work for healers making it easier to do their job and/or DPS.

If you run out of TP then just use stoneskin, or anything! Just be doing something, instead of waiting for a NIN/BRD/MCH/AST to do it for you..

I find this to be an extremely amusing comment, given that it's coming from someone who's profile says they main Warrior, and half of Warrior's defensive kit is based on active mitigation.

Actively mitigating dmg means self-healing. Bloodbath, Equilibrium, Thrill of War, and Storms Path are all used to actively mitigate via self-healing. Further, all of those moves can be coupled with other moves to increase self-healing dramatically (Ie: Bloodbath + Vengeance/Berserk/Deliverance + Fell Cleave or Decimate... etc) If you're using any of these when you don't need Hp, then you're wasting them, but according to this comment that's totally fine, given that Tanks are, apparently, not supposed to heal dmg after the fact. That's the healer's job. So, really, War's Defensive CD's consist only of Fracture, Vengeance, and Holmgang, because using anything that self-heals can be safely ignored since it's not their job ...

It's also totally okay for Pld's to drop their Dps to zero and spam cast Stoneskin (but not clemency, because self-healing after the fact is not the tank's job). It doesn't matter that their enmity generation will collapse to the floor. It also doesn't matter that the current Tank meta involves heavy Dps checks. Stoneskin and flash is where it's at. That's the bee's knees of Tanking right there. Being able to consistently apply RoH's Str down debuff on the boss is a non-issue, and keeping GB's DoT up for maximum Dps is totally not important. Pld auto attack can handle all of that lost potency cuz it's just that fast (obviously this is all sarcasm).

Seriously, I don't even understand where these kinds of comments can come from. At least their good for a chuckle, I guess.

**RiisWolf** · 01-16-2016 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Februs

I find this to be an extremely amusing comment, given that it's coming from someone who's profile says they main Warrior, and half of Warrior's defensive kit is based on active mitigation.

What I find amusing is a Paladin who has the nerve of trying to mock me over an argument with Paladin's mitigation vs tankbusters, what PLDs are doing to run out of TP and what to if and when you run of TP, just because my profile says I main as a warrior among other preconceived junk. All this because this paladin clearly thinks Clemency is on the same level as any a warrior can do, as though it can possibly be interrupted by extreme damage thus making clemency do absolutely nothing. It is so funny how in this guy's mind using stoneskin before getting hit by a tankbuster to reduce the damage and healing needed there after, is worse than potentially doing nothing and getting killed by a follow up or wasting a healer's CD like Benediction when they got better things to do than to clean up the mess your poor judgment has caused, just because clearly you think that warrior's only form of defense is self-healing. Clearly the DR, HP bonuses, Healing magic bonuses, 100% parry, best pool of cross class skills, and inner beast, all don't exist. I don't have to say that last sentence is sarcasm but since you're reading this, I should. And don't get me started with that clueless reply to If you run out of TP then just use stoneskin, or anything! Just be doing something, instead of waiting for a NIN/BRD/MCH/AST to do it for you.. . Seriously I don't feel like it.

Next time, please stay on topic.

Also to be on topic.
Would be nice if Fight or Flight increased attack power instead of strictly damage.

**AlexiIvaniskavich** · 01-13-2016 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

What in the world are Paladins doing to run out of TP in less than 2 minutes??? It makes absolutely no sense as to how players play that job and focus on being overly offensive, to the point they neglect using stoneskin and clemency. Not to mention there are tons of bosses that make themselves untouchable, or the walk between mobs.

Use MP to let your TP regenerate or play another class actually GEARED for DAMAGE!!!

That said, it'd be red if Paladin got a circle slash (or a simple cleave). I miss that attack from 1.0.

A1S - Faust as OT when your Warrior/DRK co tank is good enough to group both Faust and the adds, thus making you a glorified DPS for 2 minutes. A2S, A4 (unless you are OT)..... Honestly Clemency and stoneskin aren't used on the regular for the duration of a fight. Stone Skin usually during down time or pre- tank buster. Clemency during tank buster cast bar, possibly that moment your healers are up to their eyeballs and someone is about to die (assuming your cast won't get interrupted, thus completly wasting a GCD)

Back to topic - ISH -
I'd like to see 4.0 remove the limitation on skills that can be used at lower levels. This could allow for new skills to replace old skills (keeping the amount of available buttons to push stable) and allow for classes to be able to actualy learn their full job/work on rotations/etc while running a leveling roulette. I can't tell you how many times I sit there and do nothing on screen because the button I am mashing in my normal rotation "hasn't been learned yet".

**RiisWolf** · 01-14-2016 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

A1S - Faust as OT when your Warrior/DRK co tank is good enough to group both Faust and the adds, thus making you a glorified DPS for 2 minutes. A2S, A4 (unless you are OT)..... Honestly Clemency and stoneskin aren't used on the regular for the duration of a fight. Stone Skin usually during down time or pre- tank buster. Clemency during tank buster cast bar, possibly that moment your healers are up to their eyeballs and someone is about to die (assuming your cast won't get interrupted, thus completly wasting a GCD)

Back to topic - ISH -
I'd like to see 4.0 remove the limitation on skills that can be used at lower levels. This could allow for new skills to replace old skills (keeping the amount of available buttons to push stable) and allow for classes to be able to actualy learn their full job/work on rotations/etc while running a leveling roulette. I can't tell you how many times I sit there and do nothing on screen because the button I am mashing in my normal rotation "hasn't been learned yet".

Why would you have WAR/DRK MT Faust and the adds when you want only Faust dead? You should be having Paladin MT them all or just the adds, so you can maximize WAR/DRK damage to Faust. On top of that, timing your clemency to heal immediately after the buster hits is naturally a very bad idea. You're better off using stoneskin, assuming you didn't completely shortchange yourself by going pure str, which I'm sure you or whomever you're PLDs are likely have. You want to mitigate the damage not risk getting shut down to fix the damage.

Also, I doubt removing the limitations on skills will fix anything. Paladin is 1-2-3, get more power to threat, use flash for AoE tanking, and pop defenses often, and yet we got so many PLDs with silly ideas as not using flash at all to tank 3+ enemies, riot blade with 85%MP without flashing ever again BEFORE getting gore blade, or never use CDs at all. That's among other things bad players do with this simple.

**AlexiIvaniskavich** · 01-14-2016 04:26 AM

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Why would you have WAR/DRK MT Faust and the adds when you want only Faust dead? You should be having Paladin MT them all or just the adds, so you can maximize WAR/DRK damage to Faust. On top of that, timing your clemency to heal immediately after the buster hits is naturally a very bad idea. You're better off using stoneskin, assuming you didn't completely shortchange yourself by going pure str, which I'm sure you or whomever you're PLDs are likely have. You want to mitigate the damage not risk getting shut down to fix the damage......

If PLD tanks just the adds, you do no damage on Faust and your MT will likely need to sit at least some portion of time in tank stance (unless your group kills it in that minute and a half range). Your combined tank DPS is smallest under this method. (and your healers get to split their concentration)

If PLD MT all - Well PLD does the least amount of damage as MT of any tank class. Combine this with the fact that you will need to use flash more liberally and hold your Circle of Scorn to lock in the newest add, and you are burning at least 2 GCD (flash, flash) on non damage agro generating moves.
A WAR can double overpower (still hitting faust) and continue on hitting. A DRK can abyssal drain (and restore mana like crazy because you are getting constantly pummeled here) and still do damage on Faust. *Bonus* it is crazy easy to pick up the adds with these two classes, AoE agro generating machines they are.
A skilled PLD will pull mid to high 1100’s today as OT on Faust. A skilled DRK/PLD will pull 800+ as MT (if not much more in some cases) . MT PLD just falls too far behind on damage. (500’s range). They have the least enmity generation, and need to sit in shield oath for longer to help maintain enmity on the mob – further gimping their damage output.

As far as the use of Clemency, timing Clemency (so the heal goes off after you get hit) nets you standing with more total HP immediately after the tank buster than a 1500 – 2000 stoneskin will give you. Clemency heals for 3500+ and can be upwards of 7k with Convalesence. They take the same time to cast (roughly), and I wish to only use 1 GCD for this active mitigation style.

Mind you, you still need to utilize other defensive cool downs, and you should be at or near full health immediately prior to the TB. The question becomes, do you wish to use a GCD to mitigate damage up front but or immediately after the TB finishes. I can assure you that at 1600 health (full str build) I can Rampart+Sentinel+Conv HCP and drop to 7-8k health. Adding Stoneskin would give me + 1600 health, using Clemency gives me + 4000 health, if not more.

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

....
Also, I doubt removing the limitations on skills will fix anything. Paladin is 1-2-3, get more power to threat, use flash for AoE tanking, and pop defenses often, and yet we got so many PLDs with silly ideas as not using flash at all to tank 3+ enemies, riot blade with 85%MP without flashing ever again BEFORE getting gore blade, or never use CDs at all. That's among other things bad players do with this simple.

Admittedly this isn’t much of a fix. Tanks would get use of their tank stance assuming they are at the appropriate level outside of that particular levelling roulette dungeon, leading to opportunities to stance dance under less pressure. Paladins would get to do more than just 1-2-3 (plus circle of scorn). In short you would have the opportunity to practice your full rotation on content you likely mastered long ago.
*** But if each expansion brings new skills we are going to end up with some serious Cross Bar issues. It is possible that some new skills simply replace old skills. If level 62 PLD brings “new AOE” that is on GCD and gains enmity, I don’t really want to keep flash around as it is now outdated. My options are either, move my skills around my bars just because I am running old content, or more simply don’t run old content or use that particular skill.

**AlexiIvaniskavich** · 01-15-2016 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Takes me 3 minutes to run completely dry at 2.4, having use Lob only once and applying gore blade just before it falls off. Indefinitely if I start popping stoneskin for defense or clemency if someone is hurt bad. Hell I have more time when bosses become untouchable. …...

My OT full combo set on Faust as pld ran as Goring>RA>RA>Goring (mixing in every other offensive cooldown as soon as they become available) and I would frequently get close to flooring by the time Faust was almost dead. If my Astrologian spread an arrow or two it got dicey real fast.

WAR’s have an infinite TP floor, and DRK’s have the opportunity to cast damage magic attacks to help ease their TP strain. PLD has neither of these. The only option to do is start casting WHM spells or clemency. On a class that is already at the bottom of damage output, having the quickest TP floor is poor design. Of course, if and when you floor you should start popping something else to help you rather than standing there sitting on your shield. I would love to see either an adjustment to TP consumption for 4.0 or an extremely useful skill that is on GCD that doesn’t kill a combo and you can use as filler for TP relief.

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Also, to be on topic:
Would be rad for PLD to have their TP costs and set up like the Speedy archetypes(MNK/NIN) and make them fast strikers their GLD story makes them out to be. They even have the fastest auto attack already.
And please don't change the oaths to oGCD, I'd very like to switch freely instead of being stuck in one for 15 seconds or a possibly worse penalty than already is for them.

EWW. A 15 second cool down would be gross. If anything like this were to come about, I would anticipate that it would be closer to Warriors defiance cool down of 10 seconds <insert tank homogenization argument here>. As PLD is the weakest in dealing out the pain, I don’t think that an instant and free oath switch (ala cleric stance) would be too OP.

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I have one person here who will risk the likely of being interrupted for healing for mitigation, you do not try to mitigate damage by doing it AFTER its been done, not to mention that's the healers job to mitigate after damage is dealt. The tank is should mitigate damage before the hit so that its less work for healers making it easier to do their job and/or DPS.

I guess I have gotten you bothered in some way by this??? Certainly not the intent, and I am definitely not the only Paladin to employ this method. Though I may have been the first (at least on these forums) to state something about this usage. Technically, this method is less work for the healers as you have more HP by the time their heal hits you. I want to quantify some things though. Utilizing this method means that the mitigation you have chosen for that tank buster will leave you alive. If you are needing that extra 1500 hp that a stoneskin will provide you, this application of clemency needs to be left at the door.

Let’s face it, your healer is most concerned with where your health is after a TB, and getting you back to the top. It determines what they do, and the order they do it. They could care less if you stone skin or I clemency. They care that you were at 16k health and are now at 12k, giving them a GCD to help someone in greater need.

**Kaizer** · 01-15-2016 03:26 AM

Add a trait to Oaths that half recast times of spells.

Thread: PLD 4.0

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