PLD 4.0

[Mardel]

On top of all the awesome suggestions in this thread... some basics need to be covered/changed.

1. Swapping oaths (for us and drk)
Why does it take a gcd? Why does it cost MP? Warrior loses nothing from defiance >>> deliverance. Ninja nothing from wasp >> viper. Healers nothing from nothing >> cleric stance. However, PLD/DRK lose mp? To switch in/out of dps? It wouldn't even be a balancing issue it would simply make the job less clunky and more mp efficient.

2. Clemency interruption and scaling on spell speed...
Why is this even an issue? This is our only good heal, why can it be interrupted? Is it because SE doesn't know how to code a spell that cannot be interrupted? IF that's an issue have us build stacks in oaths that can let us instantly use clemency.

3. TP issues
Modify some skills to help us recover tp, maybe spirits within, since royal authority helps us recover mp already. (Then boost the amount of mp RA gives us)

4. Threat
RA needs to give a massive threat boost. Butchers is technically "strongest warrior combo hit" and gives them enmity bonus. This should apply to RA.

5. Tempered will
Make it do something else in addition to it's current ability.

6. Shelltron
I've sat and thought... but no it's just bad. Make it a mini rampart but slightly better. 45 seconds CD, 10% flat damage reduction.


8. AoE
Make flash perform differently depending on the oath your in. So you can have it do AoE damage w/ high threat in sword oath but in shield oath it just blinds? Something along those lines... or perhaps the reverse.

[MPNZ]

Mapping PLD stances to one button would prevent you from dropping ShO (and getting 25% more dps) without dropping your combo--a flexibility loss, and may in turn cost dps.

Flash already scales off Strength. After the tank revisions, if Vitality contributes Attack Power, it will also work off Vitality. At the moment, because it scales with Attack Power, but not with damage, Berserk will improve Flash while Fight or Flight will not, iirc. That may be what you really want to fix.

I don't see how an extra stat point is going to make much difference. Classes are already hugely inferior by level 40, and most people scorned if they haven't unlocked them by 35.

Because mapping the stance switches to one button instead of two would save space on the hot/cross bars. And, wouldn't it just be a waste to not use Sword Oath when you are trying to increase your DPS? If not: then it needs to be fixed, because it somewhat defeats their whole purpose.

That was a suggestion to make flash work for both Vitality and strength tanks by having it scale off either one or of both of them at once to increase emnity. So, maybe people it could help with some of the dickishness that's being aimed at Vitality tanks if vitality helps just as much to keep emnity.

Because it feels like it's more of a minus at level 30 than a plus. Losing raging strikes can feel like it's a bit too much for some classes at level 30. Almost to the point that it feels like it would be better to just not equip the job crystal at all.

[Shurrikhan]

Because mapping the stance switches to one button instead of two would save space on the hot/cross bars. And, wouldn't it just be a waste to not use Sword Oath when you are trying to increase your DPS? If not: then it needs to be fixed, because it somewhat defeats their whole purpose.

That was a suggestion to make flash work for both Vitality and strength tanks by having it scale off either one or of both of them at once to increase emnity. So, maybe people it could help with some of the dickishness that's being aimed at Vitality tanks if vitality helps just as much to keep emnity.

Because it feels like it's more of a minus at level 30 than a plus. Losing raging strikes can feel like it's a bit too much for some classes at level 30. Almost to the point that it feels like it would be better to just not equip the job crystal at all.

If while in Shield Oath you've already finished Riot Blade when a period of no damage taken begins, you can, with no effective mitigation loss, drop Shield Oath in order to get an extra 108 potency. If you swap to Sword Oath at that time, you drop the combo, reducing that combo's efficiency from 307 pot/GCD to 127.

Edit: to be clear, you pop Sword Oath as soon as you've finished the combo. E.g. (in ShO) FB -> RB -> (Drop ShO) -> GB -> SwO -> FB -> SB -> RA, and so on.

You only drop the combo if you can get more out of an extra AA strike than the difference from cancelling (which requires that you know precisely the window you'll be in Sword Oath for). While in a safe / Sword Oath window, you only keep Shield Oath up for that combo's finish if you need the enmity. This has been the norm since lv40...

Again, the Vit/Str dual or swapped contribution may well already be covered by the upcoming tank changes. There's no point in only one ability in the game scaling in that manner when its base enmity is fine. What's not fine is that it doesn't scale with damage-increasing effects, whereas Unleash scales with Darkside and Overpower with Maim, Berserk, and effectively Internal Release and Unchained. Have Flash and Unleash scale with Spell Speed, even, so that your SS-heavy PLDs and DRKs don't keep trudging along with 2.5s AoEs while the WAR's spamming per 2.38.

Why should the job automatically be the better at 30 anyways? I'll admit, I'm of the classes-should-still-be-relevant-in-some-levelcap-content camp, but I feel like making jobs the obvious better, that much earlier, just removes the one brief period in which we're allowed to make decisions about our class outside of the particular cross-class skill used.
That said, at least from a damage standpoint, there is no stronger ability equippable to a PLD, especially with a quick weapon speed blade, than Sword Oath. +12-17% dps at all times beats any combination of offensive CDs... (Since we have no actual AoEs until CoS, I suppose specifying single-target is irrelevant, as well.)

[Shurrikhan]

1. Swapping oaths (for us and drk)
Why does it take a gcd? Why does it cost MP? Warrior loses nothing from defiance >>> deliverance. Ninja nothing from wasp >> viper. Healers nothing from nothing >> cleric stance. However, PLD/DRK lose mp? To switch in/out of dps? It wouldn't even be a balancing issue it would simply make the job less clunky and more mp efficient.

If you had a Warrior sitting topped off at 24k in Defiance, the Deliverance button could basically say "6k hp" as its cost. For the swap to be free, the Warrior must be beneath 75% HP, because anything over that is instantly wasted. Similarly, if a Warrior swaps to Deliverance before HoTs are placed on him, he's just lost 20% periodic healing. If he swaps back before finishing his combo, he's lost 25% damage on it. Swapping to Defiance won't save a Warrior from a killing blow; it merely increases the health pool that can be topped off to thus survive the hit. It's much more delayed in that sense than Shield Oath or Grit. None of that is "free" outside of a purely DPS-oriented viewpoint, which is very unlikely to be what SE has built it for. Its largest apparent benefit is just that it feels a lot less clunky.

I'm all for changes, especially a reduction to Grit's cost or even the removal of the seemingly unnecessary Oath costs, or a revamp of Oath swaps entirely, but please don't just point at something at call it "free" when it's not, especially without specifying the weights by which you give that assessment.

2. Clemency interruption and scaling on spell speed...
Why is this even an issue? This is our only good heal, why can it be interrupted? Is it because SE doesn't know how to code a spell that cannot be interrupted? IF that's an issue have us build stacks in oaths that can let us instantly use clemency.

I would imagine it's because they wanted it to be A) primarily supportive, not a MT self-heal, and B) require proper CD timing if used as a MT self-heal. I'd be fine with seeing some sort of Art of War-esque stacking system, but would honestly rather see the spell itself internally improved, preferably by buffing only its usability, not its actual use rate or reducing its time spent (allowing more attacks to be made between with the same frequency of healing).

3. TP issues
Modify some skills to help us recover tp, maybe spirits within, since royal authority helps us recover mp already. (Then boost the amount of mp RA gives us)

This can just as easily come from a reduction of TP costs on our abilities themselves. Given that simpler alternative, I'd have to ask what you have in mind when wanting to place it on a particular ability. I'm not saying one method would be better than the other, but if two perform equally, I'd usually take the simpler. If more complicated, it should be because that suits itself to more things further down the line.

Additionally, any changes to Riot Blade's MP restore would have to be made relative to Clemency, Flash, and arguably Stoneskin. At present it takes almost 40 seconds, with two Riot Blades included, to restore the mana for a Clemency. That does seem a bit high to me. But, consider if Clemency did not break combos or was regularly used as an instant cast. Would a restore rate of 40 seconds, and a soft-cap of however long it takes to make Clemency instant, be considered expensive for a 1200 potency attack-power heal (1800 total when used on others)? We have an MP bar of two and a half Clemency casts, just barely allowing 4 per minute, as much as 3 in 20 seconds, if we start topped off and end bottomed out. That's a lot of healing, honestly.

4. Threat
RA needs to give a massive threat boost. Butchers is technically "strongest warrior combo hit" and gives them enmity bonus. This should apply to RA.

We already have an enmity combo. In our case it's uniquely paired with our debuff, which deals shit damage, although not as shit as WAR's Storm's Path (though that effectively does twice as much). It just needs to be buffed so we can use more (Sword Oath) RAs.

5. Tempered will
Make it do something else in addition to it's current ability.

The best suggestions I've seen for this are Surecast, Slow-proof, and reducing the cooldown to 2 minutes since it doesn't come with a short death-immunity, unlike the equal-CD Holmgang.

6. Shelltron
I've sat and thought... but no it's just bad. Make it a mini rampart but slightly better. 45 seconds CD, 10% flat damage reduction.

Why? I can mitigate up to 30% from what's important. Why would I trade that for a 10% mini CD, let alone at a 50% longer cooldown?

8. AoE
Make flash perform differently depending on the oath your in. So you can have it do AoE damage w/ high threat in sword oath but in shield oath it just blinds? Something along those lines... or perhaps the reverse.

Again, why?

[Marxam]

Level 62: Halone's Blessing - Resurrect a party member. 60 sec cd. MP cost = 50% of MP. Cast time 2.5 seconds.

Level 64: Barrier trait - Cover now blocks magical damage intended for another party member.

Level 66: Barricade - Create a small circle aoe behind you the grants all party members within in the aoe a 10% defensive buff. Negates knock back while under its effect. Effect ends upon moving. 180 sec cd. 10 second duration.

Level 68: Iron Constitution trait - Increases physical defense by 10%

Level 70: Halone's Fury Trait - Increases Sword Oath potency to 80 per auto attack. Animation changes to dual wield swords.



this was the closest thing I could find that best illustrates what I had in mind.

[Jonnycbad]

1) Circle Blade - AoE physical damage, 100 potency, 120TP. Increases Enmity. Basically Unleash, but uses TP.
2) Some kind of Holy Stance that drains MP like Darkside but lowers weapon skill TP cost by 15%, attack speed by 5%

[RiisWolf]

What in the world are Paladins doing to run out of TP in less than 2 minutes??? It makes absolutely no sense as to how players play that job and focus on being overly offensive, to the point they neglect using stoneskin and clemency. Not to mention there are tons of bosses that make themselves untouchable, or the walk between mobs.

Use MP to let your TP regenerate or play another class actually GEARED for DAMAGE!!!


That said, it'd be red if Paladin got a circle slash (or a simple cleave). I miss that attack from 1.0.

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

What in the world are Paladins doing to run out of TP in less than 2 minutes??? It makes absolutely no sense as to how players play that job and focus on being overly offensive, to the point they neglect using stoneskin and clemency. Not to mention there are tons of bosses that make themselves untouchable, or the walk between mobs.

Use MP to let your TP regenerate or play another class actually GEARED for DAMAGE!!!


That said, it'd be red if Paladin got a circle slash (or a simple cleave). I miss that attack from 1.0.

A1S - Faust as OT when your Warrior/DRK co tank is good enough to group both Faust and the adds, thus making you a glorified DPS for 2 minutes. A2S, A4 (unless you are OT)..... Honestly Clemency and stoneskin aren't used on the regular for the duration of a fight. Stone Skin usually during down time or pre- tank buster. Clemency during tank buster cast bar, possibly that moment your healers are up to their eyeballs and someone is about to die (assuming your cast won't get interrupted, thus completly wasting a GCD)

Back to topic - ISH -
I'd like to see 4.0 remove the limitation on skills that can be used at lower levels. This could allow for new skills to replace old skills (keeping the amount of available buttons to push stable) and allow for classes to be able to actualy learn their full job/work on rotations/etc while running a leveling roulette. I can't tell you how many times I sit there and do nothing on screen because the button I am mashing in my normal rotation "hasn't been learned yet".

[Mardel]

Why? I can mitigate up to 30% from what's important. Why would I trade that for a 10% mini CD, let alone at a 50% longer cooldown?

Because bosses like to auto-attack between a huge tank buster. Relying on the shelltron to not block the auto but still eat the buster is somewhat foolish. Thus consistency that you will always negate 10% is more beneficial in the course of a string of hits vs. "Oops the auto ate my shelltron." Not to mention a few tank busters are magical... can't block magic atm D;

1. Deliverance >> Defiance they keep their wrath stacks I would argue the hp drop is irrelevant because at this point if they have made the switch they are obviously not concerned with dying.

4. Threat, this is still an issue. Yes the str debuff is nice with our enmity combo, but what does that do for pld when a healer can be creeping up on threat when you try and push dps? This is an issue drk and warrior do not have and are currently superior in meta. Without a doubt Royal Authority needs threat similar to Halone at least when in shield oath.

8. AoE, why? IDK maybe because I rather not take forever and a half to do a dungeon that my counterparts cruise through? When I'm on a dps and I see a pld in my group my thoughts are, "this will be slow". Couple this with healers that don't dps in df; what is blinding the mobs doing for you exactly outside threat building? Sure they'll miss but how effective is that when healing is not even an issue and the opportunity to not heal isn't even capitalized on?

As for tp, sure you can adjust all the skills to cost less, but this does not remedy future issues. It would likely need to be the combination of a skill giving us some tp + lowering of some skills.

[RiisWolf]

A1S - Faust as OT when your Warrior/DRK co tank is good enough to group both Faust and the adds, thus making you a glorified DPS for 2 minutes. A2S, A4 (unless you are OT)..... Honestly Clemency and stoneskin aren't used on the regular for the duration of a fight. Stone Skin usually during down time or pre- tank buster. Clemency during tank buster cast bar, possibly that moment your healers are up to their eyeballs and someone is about to die (assuming your cast won't get interrupted, thus completly wasting a GCD)

Back to topic - ISH -
I'd like to see 4.0 remove the limitation on skills that can be used at lower levels. This could allow for new skills to replace old skills (keeping the amount of available buttons to push stable) and allow for classes to be able to actualy learn their full job/work on rotations/etc while running a leveling roulette. I can't tell you how many times I sit there and do nothing on screen because the button I am mashing in my normal rotation "hasn't been learned yet".

Why would you have WAR/DRK MT Faust and the adds when you want only Faust dead? You should be having Paladin MT them all or just the adds, so you can maximize WAR/DRK damage to Faust. On top of that, timing your clemency to heal immediately after the buster hits is naturally a very bad idea. You're better off using stoneskin, assuming you didn't completely shortchange yourself by going pure str, which I'm sure you or whomever you're PLDs are likely have. You want to mitigate the damage not risk getting shut down to fix the damage.

Also, I doubt removing the limitations on skills will fix anything. Paladin is 1-2-3, get more power to threat, use flash for AoE tanking, and pop defenses often, and yet we got so many PLDs with silly ideas as not using flash at all to tank 3+ enemies, riot blade with 85%MP without flashing ever again BEFORE getting gore blade, or never use CDs at all. That's among other things bad players do with this simple.