More Horizontal Progression please

[Sandpark]

I don't stand around and do nothing.

if I don't have something to do at any given time, I *gasp* log off and go do something else.

The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.

Had this been a decade ago, you wouldn't have very much choice in what games were available.

That's another thing folks forget about those older days. There was next to no competition. Everquest was the *only* game of it's type for a while, and XI never got big marketing. Asheron's Call(first one) didn't get much either, and it never really had a big population.

These were niche games. If they had 100k subscribers, they were lucky for the longest time.

Me? If i spend long hours in a game, I want to do it because I'm having fun. Farming rare drops? Not fun. Sitting on my arse waiting on respawns? Not fun. The reason I *don't* play those games is because they felt like a chore. If I don't have a reason to log in every day, great. Gives me an excuse to go outside.

They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

The XIV devs were always aware of XI's tendency of this. You see many things in this game implemented to cure this.
Duty finder, fates,changing jobs/skills/gear on the fly, popped NM in 1.0, short duration dungeons, roulette.



They weren't niche because they were more boring or easy. It's because they were hardcore.
I consider GTA casual to midcore, it sells millions upon millions, but in terms of playtime I usually set these games down for a good while after beating the main story and twenty hours of destroying stuff. And that is fine since the devs don't make more money by me playing longer since it isn't sub based.

Dark souls is hardcore, not everyone gets into them but it sells around 2 mil or so. You can spend around 200-300 hrs easily playing the game normally.

Both games make money but because there is no sub, how long we play has no consequence on content getting developed. XIV either has to sell millions+ copies per expansion or create deep, relevant, long lasting content to keep people subbing.

If they get lazy and just throw in filler, repetitive content, or padding, gamers today are aware and will unsubscribe eventually if things don't change due to lots of choice today.

Farming rare drops and monsters could be fun and not be just sitting on your arse if done right. Like an actual hunting system with deep mechanics involving tracking, trapping, learning eco systems, meta.
It could be an active and visual system.There could also be a system of interacting where drops could be coaxed by you.

The problem is here there either is no system in place or it is done in a static, menu based % game with not enough resources to keep it being active.

General mmo mentality is:
Consume the main course(story,unlocks,gear)then log off till the next meal.
Not many stay long for the sides(meta,side content,expanded stuff)if the sides are lean, tasteless, or common side items.

The content needs to bring the:
Breadth
Relavence
Engaging
Active
Depth
Time respecting
Honed

Also no bread is good without butter, butter makes everything taste better, butter is variety.

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

[Velhart]

Sandbox games are really (were) the only MMOs that can really offer that depth and longevity. Honestly people these days do not want to put time in their games, and why should they be stronger then someone who does? So many games these days have daily caps, daily quests, uninteresting stories and plots.

I have 800+ hours clocked in Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2.
I also have 700 hours clocked in RUST. (Survival Horror.)

What makes those games so good?

They don't feel like its tedious to grind and play the game. The grinding is actually engaging and fun. It challenges me.

If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

If you design a game catered to those who have a lot of time to spend a given night, your game is set to being a niche title at best.

Not really Niche. That type of game-play is really popular in animes.

They just think its "ONLY IN VIRTUAL REALITY." like SAO...

Its not Niche, because there has not been an MMO designed for that style of gameplay for... 11-13 years now?

Nothing really like it at the moment.

It can't be niche when there is nobody doing it.


Honestly, that is a popular opinion. However, your wrong.

Statistics do point that you are correct, however the new generation of gamers in an MMO have never really been challenged by anything. They never had a challenged thrusted in their face. They never had a sense of fear when leaving their towns or dangers from the world.

Make a game and treat it like a WORLD INSTEAD of a game.


Your "Popular" game idea, has me logging in BORED doing NOTHING for HOURS because THERE IS NO CONTENT. We have DONE it all. NOTHING challenges me. NOTHING makes me AFRAID. Bosses don't scare me. EVERYTHING IS A CHORE. Yet this is.. fun?

The idea of sitting for 7 months waiting for the next update may sound fun to you. However if you make a game that takes hours upon hours and challenges you... your game will last longer.

What you don't realize, is the popular game is short lived. Until the next "WOW" comes out and everyone leaves and flocks to it because its new and shiny. Now your game is dead. Meanwhile, the "Niche" game still has its same subscribers.

[Velhart]

Not really Niche. That type of game-play is really popular in animes.

They just think its "ONLY IN VIRTUAL REALITY." like SAO...

What works on a TV show may not translate well into an actual game, especially one aiming at worldwide appeal.

Its not Niche, because there has not been an MMO designed for that style of gameplay for... 11-13 years now?

Nothing really like it at the moment.

It can't be niche when there is nobody doing it.

Do you know what niche means? It means only a specific audience favors that type of style.

Honestly, that is a popular opinion. However, your wrong.

Statistics do point that you are correct, however the new generation of gamers in an MMO have never really been challenged by anything. They never had a challenged thrusted in their face. They never had a sense of fear when leaving their towns or dangers from the world.

Making more time sinks does not make a game difficult, it just milks it more. Difficulty is actually making he fights hard and require your skill and ability to understand your job and mechanics, not how much time you can invest into it. By your logic, the worst of players can be the best if they bang their head on their keyboard enough.

Make a game and treat it like a WORLD INSTEAD of a game.

That is subjective thinking. What you consider immersion into a world can be different from someone else's.

Your "Popular" game idea, has me logging in BORED doing NOTHING for HOURS because THERE IS NO CONTENT. We have DONE it all. NOTHING challenges me. NOTHING makes me AFRAID. Bosses don't scare me. EVERYTHING IS A CHORE. Yet this is.. fun?

There is plenty for you to do. You just don't want to do them. The only valid complaint I have seen in this thread is that this game's only difficult content is Alex(Savage) and EX Primals(kind of). Most content can be face rolled except those. People have this "bored" mindset because there is no middle ground. They should of made Alex(Normal) on the difficulty of Final Coil and Alex(Savage) tuned up harder than it is currently right now. Without a good middle ground, there are complaints that there are only catering to each extreme end. The ones that want everything handed to them on a silver platter (Alex(Normal) basically) and people who want over the top punishing content (Alex(Savage)).

tl;dr Time =/= skill

[Kaurie]

Do you know what niche means? It means only a specific audience favors that type of style.
l

I just figured that I'd let you know that everything is niche, given this definition.

In terms of how it's generally used in markets is "a specialized but profitable corner of the market."


So under your definition, everything is niche. Casual, hardcore, raiding, crafting, chatting etc etc.

Under the market definition, 'niche' is not a bad thing, as it's profitable.

[Fyce]

Under the market definition, 'niche' is not a bad thing, as it's profitable.

Not everything niche is profitable enough to be done.
Ressources are needed to make something, even niche. If another project were to earn more if these ressources were allocated to it instead, it means a lost opportunity to increase the overall benefits.

In short terms, even if a niche product makes money, it often don't make it quick enough to justify the investment if the ressources needed to make it were more valuable somewhere else.

[karateorangutang]

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We got pretty far off topic eh?

Anyway, some of this stuff is pretty good and could be implemented. However, MMO's need to attract more casual players than hardcore players to survive. You need a way to create enough content to make casual players feel at home then you need a smaller set of challenging content to keep them interested beyond the beginning. Now changing dungeon mechanics to include things like harder pulls would be cool, but only really affects the tank class. It's very difficult to make a dynamic that affects all the party members. Especially when roles are so defined in an MMO game.

Equivalating Dark Souls and GTA to a MMO is... like comparing apples and oranges. They have completely different gameplay types and endgame goals for the player. Plus a MMO game based on twitch response is a recipe for disaster. I would require even smaller instanced areas for the server to handle the load.

There's a specific reason why MMO content is decidedly simplistic or extremely difficult. It's to make the design to progression ratio easy to deal with. They either have to make it easy to make so that it can be pumped out en masse, or they take their time and make it so difficult that it takes months to be able to clear. It's a massive undertaking to create a new content and there needs to be a way to deal with the sheer amount of customers they need to deal with.

Additionally, EQ2 has been around since 2004. They've had time to fine tune a formula. FFXIV is still a relatively new MMO. They still need time to make mistakes and correct them.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

We got pretty far off topic eh?

Anyway, some of this stuff is pretty good and could be implemented. However, MMO's need to attract more casual players than hardcore players to survive. You need a way to create enough content to make casual players feel at home then you need a smaller set of challenging content to keep them interested beyond the beginning. Now changing dungeon mechanics to include things like harder pulls would be cool, but only really affects the tank class. It's very difficult to make a dynamic that affects all the party members. Especially when roles are so defined in an MMO game.

Equivalating Dark Souls and GTA to a MMO is... like comparing apples and oranges. They have completely different gameplay types and endgame goals for the player. Plus a MMO game based on twitch response is a recipe for disaster. I would require even smaller instanced areas for the server to handle the load.

There's a specific reason why MMO content is decidedly simplistic or extremely difficult. It's to make the design to progression ratio easy to deal with. They either have to make it easy to make so that it can be pumped out en masse, or they take their time and make it so difficult that it takes months to be able to clear. It's a massive undertaking to create a new content and there needs to be a way to deal with the sheer amount of customers they need to deal with.

No, SWGEmu is still alive with 3000-4000 players. Supported by Donations. Even though its very old and buggy since they don't have all the tools its not dead. It was a very very niche MMO too, 300k subscribers before it was shut down.

Actually no, your wrong.

GTA/Dark Souls both have a lot of Elements SWG had.

SWG had cities you could build yourself and dynamic zones and being able to take over others cities and make your own content. SWG had no levels when it began which meant all content is endgame content.
SWG also had deep hard and challenging zones like Dark Souls does that made you pay a LOT of attention to things around you or you died.


YOU "can" make an MMO like it. Its POSSIBLE.

Sword Art Online for example, and Log Horizon are BOTH MMOs (not real ones!) but ones like this!


Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

[karateorangutang]

YOU "can" make an MMO like it. Its POSSIBLE.

Sure, but expecting it to be achieved in a MMO that is already coded is foolhardy. Alot of these things you guys are discussing would completely change the feel and focus of this game.

GTA/Dark Souls both have a lot of Elements SWG had.

I guess I'm missing your point here. SWG is old and failing, so no company in their right mind is gonna use this as a template for success. 3000-4000 players would be a pittance for even a small game company. Additionally, making any sort of twitch gameplay in a MMO does two things:
1. You need the server speed to deal with the pings. With over a million subscribers in XIV that would require a vast network.
2. You are limiting the type of gamer that will buy your product. There are a ton of players that love MMO style combat for its simplicity. Maybe they prefer it or they have a disability that hinders their ability to react quickly to a stimulus. MMO's give that type of gamer a clear and achievable goal.

FFXIV is a extremely casual game. It's meant to be that way. Why is it that everyone wants to change that so badly?

Developers are just not willing to take the risk to make a Sandbox game like that.

No, because you have to be able to assure yourself a payday at the end of it. Why do you think we are seeing things like reboots of movies and all the superhero movies. They are cash cows that are guaranteed money. It's not about creativity or the human spirit flying around in a colorful rainbow. The gaming industry has to make money to stay active.