The Real Problem with Parsers

[Isala]

1. What if Helen Keller played this game, you would kick her.

I have to steal this. It's too priceless.

[Aiselia]

How's the old poem go? "To you from failing hands we throw/The torch; be yours to hold it high." Someone else must take up arms against the villainous scroll bar.

Anyway, we both seem to be agreed that parsers would be groovy if they didn't come with a side order of jerks. We just disagree about how many jerks there would be and how many jerks is too many.

If nobody suppresses the scroll bar, it might grow too large and then start harassing smaller scroll bars for not being long enough.

And yeah, pretty much. Heck, I might even disagree with SE's numbers too. Personally I think that a personal parser (particularly with optional sharing) solves the problem of not being able to gauge one's own performance with less chance of jerkitude happening, so I think that's SE's safest middle ground.

If it's private, relative performance within context is lost.

Which may not be necessary, particularly if you're not doubling up classes. If I'm doing 1,200 DPS as a BRD, it doesn't really matter to how good my performance is whether the DRG is doing 1,300 or 1,100. What would matter is what I do in comparison to other BRDs, which could still be ascertained by looking on the forum. If I look at the forum and see other BRDs are doing 1,300, I know there's room for improvement. If I look at the forum and see DRGs are doing 1,500, that doesn't mean I can improve as a BRD.

Even if there's two BRDs in the run, if I'm doing 1,100 and the other's doing 1,000, while I have the context that I'm doing better than the other BRD, I don't have the more important context of what a BRD can actually do if others outside the run are doing 1,300.

[Waliel]

How dare people with disabilities want to experience content in the game they pay for?

Also, the argument isn't restricted to only high-end content. 700 DPS is completely good enough for things like Expert Roulette, but some people would still kick over that.

The number doesn't matter. It could be 4000 for all I care, but if it's not good enough for the content and causes wipes to happen because of low DPS, it's just simply not good enough. If one happens to find a group that is willing to go the extra mile to get them through, I don't really care what they do then.

In the end disabilities don't matter one bit concerning this whole debate, if you ask me.

[Aiselia]

In the end disabilities don't matter one bit concerning this whole debate, if you ask me.

They do when there are people outright stating they'll kick based on DPS in things like Expert Roulette where the worst that's going to happen if someone's doing lower DPS is that you're going to take a bit longer. Especially when the major point of contention for why SE doesn't officially add in parsers is that exact elitist attitude.

If they're going to hold everyone to the exact same standard and not give a crap about legitimate reasons why someone might be doing lower DPS just because it might take 10 more minutes to do an Expert Roulette, then they're the exact problem that SE expects. And anyone that actually wants parsers in the game should be against those people, not defending them, because they're making it a lot harder to justify adding in parsers.

[Ephier]

I swear some people in this thread on some stuff. The whole argument against parsers is like the no child left behind act. No, the higher end community should not dumb down its standards because low end players refuse to get better. I do not know why people are so scared to see their performance numbers. If your numbers are low compared to others then you can say, hey I should work on that. Yes people will shame you. If you trip in real life, a few people will laugh, a few people will come help you up, or do both. That is just how life works. This whole care bear mentality that we should let bad's be bad's is ridiculous. If their weapon ilvl is low (148~160) obviously their damage won't be up to i200~i210 weapon damage, but DPS doing 2.0 DPS at level 60 is beyond unacceptable, I do not care what you say.

[Psycofang]

They wont add public parsers man, people are very entitled and will expect top notch dps, healing and tanking when they enter a roulette (read; random you get what you get) the roulette were built for people who do not care and need help clearing something.

Not for parse queens.

Just because I had an amazing dragoon duo experience that melted everything in our path doesn't mean this should or will become the standard. Not everyone can reach the bar, that's why there is tome gear and catch up gear, this is a theme park mmo where all your efforts are reset every major patch I.e. every 3 months. I get you want faster runs , those are great and all, but unlike some 10 extra minutes in a game everyone (EVERYONE ) pays for is not too much for me.
If there's so much that needs to be done do those first then roulette, simple.

I play blm and we have to do our max damage but if I get one in roulette that wont? Oh well tough cookie. In a raid environment does it become truly "unacceptable".

[Fevelle]

"Yes people will shame you. If you trip in real life, a few people will laugh, a few people will come help you up, or do both. That is just how life works."

This is not life, this is game. NOBODY comes here to get shamed for 'tripping' or doing less than some random-person-you-don't-know think you should do.

[Aiselia]

Yes people will shame you. ... but DPS doing 2.0 DPS at level 60 is beyond unacceptable, I do not care what you say.

But hey, guess what? Posts like this? Yeah, they're not helping the cause of getting parsers.

If people want to make SE think that they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS, they should act like they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS. They also should avoid making statements like "Hey, you know how SE wants to avoid people getting shamed over their DPS because of parsers? Well, that's totally going to happen, but they should just get over it, gimme parsers."

The saddest part about the pro-parser crowd is that a lot of them act like the very thing the anti-parser sentiment is based around, and admit that the anti-parser sentiment is totally going to come true to at least some degree.

A big part of the pro-parser crowd is the best argument against parsers.

And instead of listening to that and thinking, "Hm, maybe we shouldn't do this, thanks for pointing out that arguments like this are self-defeating," most will just shrug it aside and blame me for being anti-parser.

[Kona_Nightwind]

My favorite part of this thread, is how the anti parser crowd acts like no one uses parsers. Everyone, minus those who can't, that want a parser run a parser. People just want a more accurate parser.

[Ephier]

But hey, guess what? Posts like this? Yeah, they're not helping the cause of getting parsers. If people want to make SE think that they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS, they should act like they're mature enough to handle parsers without getting uppity over somebody in their random group having low DPS. They also should avoid making statements like "Hey, you know how SE wants to avoid people getting shamed over their DPS because of parsers? Well, that's totally going to happen, but they should just get over it, gimme parsers."

The saddest part about the pro-parser crowd is that a lot of them act like the very thing the anti-parser sentiment is based around, and admit that the anti-parser sentiment is totally going to come true to at least some degree.

A big part of the pro-parser crowd is the best argument against parsers.

And instead of listening to that and thinking, "Hm, maybe we shouldn't do this, thanks for pointing out that arguments like this are self-defeating," most will just shrug it aside and blame me for being anti-parser.

Does not matter whether or not SE adds parsers or not, the community already has one. Community as a whole will never be mature enough to handle parsers because well, it's a video game. In any "competitive" environment there will always be situations like this. Good players and bad players will be segregated. In a perfect world, parsers SHOULD help the bad players get better, but we all know for the most part, it makes people sensitive.

My issue with lack of parsers is, its very easy to tell when a healer or tank is bad and people have no problems saying something about that. Soon as we bring up the subject of DPS shaming it becomes taboo. Maining DPS in quite a few games I can honestly say, the DPS community is full of arrogant brats and cry babies who shut down as soon as they are shown they are not as good as they think they are.

So I agree, community is not mature enough to handle something like this, but as I have said we already have one. I personally have no problems teaching people how to play so long as they are willing to learn. Some people just honestly do not know how to play their class, that is fine. But when one has the mentality that they are fine with their low DPS causes problems for the rest of the group having to pick up slack for that person.