The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

people like you

People like me? You mean people like me who want a personal parser so people can improve but don't see how the subjective benefits of a party parser objectively outweigh what SE expects will happen?

by claiming suddenly more "good players" would become much more aggressive

I don't have to claim that. The pro-parser side already proves it by saying that they'd totally take people to task over low DPS even in content that doesn't have DPS checks at all. Regardless, that's not my claim. That's SE's fear. It's irrelevant if I make that claim because you still have to prove SE wrong. If I stayed out of this thread completely? Yeah, SE would still think the same thing.

to cause unneeded dispute

Who says it's unneeded? Remember, SE already has the stance that they don't want people to turn into mouthy jerks if they let them talk about others' DPS. If you want to try to help get parsers, you've got to somehow convince them that they're wrong. Which means dispute is absolutely needed. I'd also put forward that it's a litmus test for their own fears. If people can't even handle talking ABOUT parsers without resorting to personal attacks, why should SE expect that they can handle USING parsers without personal attacks?

a tool that would be valuable in helping DPS players improve ten-fold.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

I can quote it again if you like. I'm not against people having a tool to improve their DPS. I'm against people using said tool to be jerks.

Then we could have a thread full of plenty of positive support for parsers.

Coming from people who completely admit that they'll be the people that SE doesn't want?

Thing is these people you mention would be 'elitists' with or without one.

And they're not allowed to talk about numbers now, which holds back their elitism. Seems like most people just want to be able to let that elitism out. It's a pretty poor argument for parsers for people to say they're completely going to act how SE fears.

Adding in an official parser would wake some up to how they're holding back the other 3 or 7 players also paying for a sub.

Which a personal parser can completely do, which I've already said repeatedly I'm absolutely fine with and is a great middle ground for SE because it lets people see their DPS to improve but prevents people from seeing others' DPS to be the elitists SE doesn't want them to be.

The easiest way to allay this fear is to do a respectable amount of dps.

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

[Malevicton]

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

Probably somewhere in the middle :P Really, elitists expecting perfection in all content are extremely rare. They're around, but rare. People do expect something higher than 300 dps though.

Most "elitists" are aware that things like mechanics, ilvl, different jobs, etc, can all have a significant effect on dps. So very few people will expect 1200+ in dungeons/primals. But really regardless of ilvl, job, mechanics, skill, or whatever, people should be able to pull about 600-700 dps on a boss. I think that would be closer to the expectation than perfection would.

[randysquirrel]

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

It is down to each individual's personal judgment. What is respectable to me may not be respectable to someone else, and vice versa. Exactly the same way, at present, my level of tolerance in doing a duty, may be very different to what someone else will tolerate.

Apologies if I have not addressed your point, but I don't really understand the point you are making.

I would be interested in your opinion of what I suggested for a parser with different settings.

[Aiselia]

It is down to each individual's personal judgment. What is respectable to me may not be respectable to someone else, and vice versa. Exactly the same way, at present, my level of tolerance in doing a duty, may be very different to what someone else will tolerate.

But then that doesn't necessarily allay any fears at all, does it? It still puts the power in the hands of the elitists to decide what's acceptable.

I mean, bear in mind that I'm not talking about high end content where DPS really is super important or you're simply not finishing it. I'm talking about things like Expert Roulette where people will demand a certain level of DPS or kick even if the only downside to having lower DPS than that is the run takes 10 minutes longer.

I would be interested in your opinion of what I suggested for a parser with different settings.

If they make a rule saying you're not allowed to demand public settings or kick in duty finder and it's an actionable offence to do such, or possibly just make it private-only in DF, I think it'd work. It'd cement more of the idea that DF is for people who don't care or are willing to take the risk that not everyone in the run will be optimal and PF/premades are better for people who want control over what they're getting.

I also put forth the idea in another thread that they'd be personal parsers, period, but you could have a "Share to:" button to share with specific people and "Share to Party" button which shares to your current party. That way, you've got more control over who actually sees it and if wipes happen which are DPS check wipes rather than simply mechanic wipes, you could either have a designated person be the one to share things to or just simply share to the party. And, I mean, if you fail a DPS check and 3 DPS share theirs and they're all fine and the last refuses, you could probably guess where the problem lies, and not only that, but you know that if the person refuses to share it when everyone else is shown to be good and the assumption is that it's because the person is embarrassed by it, it's likely the person is obstinately refusing to improve, which means they're not likely to accept help. If someone shares it and it's low but is willing to accept tips on rotations, then they can be helped. It makes it that much simpler to figure out who's low because they just need help and who's low because they outright refuse to think they need to get better.

[Viridiana]

Who decides what's respectable? The elitists expecting perfection in all content, or the masses who don't care as long as they get through it?

To be fair, I don't think anyone (even the most elitist jerk) is demanding perfection. I mean, I've never seen any reports of people being kicked for not eating HQ DPS food and using HQ Draco pots in DF. Not even in Ravana PF (well, usually food there in the early days).

[Whiteroom]

And they're not allowed to talk about numbers now, which holds back their elitism. Seems like most people just want to be able to let that elitism out. It's a pretty poor argument for parsers for people to say they're completely going to act how SE fears.

Such a bad, bad statement, your head is a little too far in the sand here. Yeah they talk about it, just without saying numbers. You will just get a "Your terrible." If you are lucky. You wont know why your terrible. You will most likely just get kicked with no info as to why.

Groups without parsers will not know why they are failing, maybe they will think they are the bad player or that they suck, when a parser would tell them that they are, in fact doing the numbers they should. People who aren't putting up the numbers would see that they should probably work on that, or at least know what area they arent completing their portion of the work in.

The only difference parsers bring is that people can accuratly diagnose some problems, and work towards getting better. Jerks are still going to be jerks, the only difference is that when they are being jerks, the sentance they type can now have letters and numbers in it....

I'm willing to be you would see more clears as a result of it, and more clears equals a happier community since people don't spend months of what should be relaxing game time banging their head against content walls.

But then again I've come to the conclusion many pages back that you are just arguing for the sake of it.

[Souljacker]

The thing that many are forgetting is that parsers are already widely in use. Widely. There's two main ones out there that aren't official, and people are using them. SE can either stick their heads in the sand and pretend that people aren't already parsing dps, or they can accept that this is a tool that is going to be used regardless of what they want and obsolete it by making something official and available to EVERYONE to use. Either way, you can't escape jerks who are going to kick you from their parties. You just might not know for certain the reason why you were kicked.

[Aiselia]

The thing that many are forgetting is that parsers are already widely in use.

The thing that many who bring that up are forgetting is that it doesn't negate their policy of not bringing up DPS numbers, which seems to be one of the two biggest reasons for people wanting parsers put in, alongside fairness for console players. SE aren't pretending people don't use them. They know full well. If they actually wanted to stop people from using them, there'd be a heck of a lot of banned accounts from people who've posted their parses here.

I mean, really, people can stop bringing up that parsers already exist. Everyone knows. It's just irrelevant to the argument. It doesn't change that you're not allowed to bring it up to someone in-game, which seems to be what people want changed more than they really want the actual parser added in.

I mean, I've never seen any reports of people being kicked for not eating HQ DPS food and using HQ Draco pots in DF.

You're not a GM though, so you wouldn't see the reports. :P

How do you know they don't happen?

Such a bad, bad statement, your head is a little too far in the sand here.

I said holds back, not stops. I do hope you weren't suggesting I was saying nobody is a jerk based on DPS now.

Groups without parsers will not know why they are failing

At this point, I can only assume you've missed my repeated, and I do mean repeated, statements saying that I'm completely fine with parsers as long as they don't create extra jerks and that I'm all for a personal parser for people to see their own DPS to improve because that's the safest middle ground for SE to let people get their numbers to see if they have room for improvement without risking extra jerks calling people out on their DPS. I assume that because you seem to be trying to convince me of the exact benefits of a parser that I've already said I know about and think would be great to have.

But then again I've come to the conclusion many pages back that you are just arguing for the sake of it.

And I assume that you skipped actually reading most of it because you chose to come to an incorrect conclusion.

Although, I mean, pro-tip: Everyone here is arguing for the sake of it. SE isn't honestly going to take any action based on my argument with Viridiana in either direction. I highly doubt anybody who can actually make the decision is even reading this. If SE would consider anything important from this thread, it's going to be the number of people who can't even talk about parsers without resorting to personal attacks so they can't really be expected to use them to tell someone their DPS is low without resorting to personal attacks.

Here, I'll repeat it again just for you because you clearly missed it by trying to extol the virtues of a parser to me:

I've also said that I have zero problems with personal parsers to be allowed to see one's own output so they can improve if they care, and that that would be a safe middle ground for SE to implement because they can still maintain their current policy of not bringing up others' specific DPS because they shouldn't be able to see someone else's with a personal parser.

And further:

I also put forth the idea in another thread that they'd be personal parsers, period, but you could have a "Share to:" button to share with specific people and "Share to Party" button which shares to your current party. That way, you've got more control over who actually sees it and if wipes happen which are DPS check wipes rather than simply mechanic wipes, you could either have a designated person be the one to share things to or just simply share to the party. And, I mean, if you fail a DPS check and 3 DPS share theirs and they're all fine and the last refuses, you could probably guess where the problem lies, and not only that, but you know that if the person refuses to share it when everyone else is shown to be good and the assumption is that it's because the person is embarrassed by it, it's likely the person is obstinately refusing to improve, which means they're not likely to accept help. If someone shares it and it's low but is willing to accept tips on rotations, then they can be helped. It makes it that much simpler to figure out who's low because they just need help and who's low because they outright refuse to think they need to get better.

So really, if anyone's arguing for the sake of arguing, it's the people who obstinately just put forth arguments like "Jerks will be jerks, gimme parser" or "Getting kicked builds character, git gud, gimme parser". I, on the other hand, have actually put some effort into considering ways parsers could be added for the sake of everybody without stepping on peoples' toes.

[Viridiana]

You're not a GM though, so you wouldn't see the reports. :P

How do you know they don't happen?

Oh, something that bad would totally have been brought up somewhere outside the game. Come on.

[Aiselia]

Oh, something that bad would totally have been brought up somewhere outside the game. Come on.

Oh yeah, well, there was this one group who I was with and they were like "Oh man noob, you totally should have been eating HQ Tailor-Made Eel Pie instead of your noobish HQ Lalafell Pot Pie" and then kicked me.

So there. >.>