PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Ultimatecalibur]

Please, I implore you, let's stop pretending that WAR, in its "perfection", deals the DPS of a DRG while mitigating like a PLD. WAR's MAXIMUM DPS is higher than PLD, but if it wants to mitigate like a PLD, it will not reach those levels of DPS.

I'm not pretending that Warrior DpS competes with actual DpS. I just see a problem when a Warrior is dealing ~115% to ~120% of the damage the other two tanks are without assistance and still keeps a ~5% to ~10% advantage when they do have it and at the same time can reach a similar levels of survivability in current content. The ability to mitigate as much as a PLD is not an advantage when you only need what the Warrior provides.

Now on topic, ACTUAL data collected shows PLD can deal the DPS levels of DRK, with A2S being the exception since PLD can't AoE for jack.

Which probes and suggests the actual problem: The Paladin's single target damage output is only a "joke" when compared to a Warriors and its AoE damage is a "joke" when compared to both of the other tanks.

[Donjo]

... 2. Alexander Savage is mostly magical damage and while PLD's toolkit is fine for it, DRK's toolkit is better. ...

No, it really isn't. Granted, it does have instances of magical tank busters(Akh Morn being the only one that previously existed), but almost everything aside from those that directly target the Tanks(or is intended to be redirected toward Tanks somehow) is physical... Except for A4, but even A4 has physical attacks hitting a Tank in quarantine so it still isn't as egregious as Ultima HM or Ramuh.

EDIT: WAR loses IB and in a magical environment they go down to having only Vengeance as a "good CD" and ToB+Convalescence which is far worse than Rampart in both effectiveness and CD/uptime.

Thril + Conva is fine if they're both combined and is not far worse than Rampart in either count. Regarding Duration, as long as the meta discourages the use of defensive cooldowns outside of specific burst damage scenarios, then the total uptime of a specific buff if it is kept perpetually on cooldown will be largely irrelevant. As long as both are around when they're needed(and they certainly are), they're fine. Besides, we're comparing 22.22% uptime to 16.67% uptime if we do want to consider the perpetually on cooldown angle. Worse, to be sure, but not by a crippling amount by any means. Regarding effectiveness, it is definitely a detriment that both of them must be up at the same time to give a similar effect to what pressing a single button can do in most other cases. However, that combination is equivalent to reducing incoming damage by 16.67% which is a more favorable comparison than uptime.

TL;DR: Ya'll are exaggerating too much.

[RapBreon]

No, it really isn't. Granted, it does have instances of magical tank busters(Akh Morn being the only one that previously existed), but almost everything aside from those that directly target the Tanks(or is intended to be redirected toward Tanks somehow) is physical... Except for A4, but even A4 has physical attacks hitting a Tank in quarantine so it still isn't as egregious as Ultima HM or Ramuh.

But tank busters are really the only thing a tank does, that's part of tanking. Everything is kind of the healers problem!

Which I suppose is a problem with the notion of tanking and healing to begin with.

[RapBreon]

Edit: Double post soz.

[Phoenicia]

I'm not pretending that Warrior DpS competes with actual DpS. I just see a problem when a Warrior is dealing ~115% to ~120% of the damage the other two tanks are without assistance and still keeps a ~5% to ~10% advantage when they do have it and at the same time can reach a similar levels of survivability in current content. The ability to mitigate as much as a PLD is not an advantage when you only need what the Warrior provides.

There is no problem that a class deals so much more damage than another when it is declared their "thing". As I said in my post, that "so much more damage" is only achievable at the cost of being not so tanky. You say WAR has Storm Path? Well, if WAR wants to reach that 15~20% more DPS than DRK/PLD, he HAS to never touch Storm Path or Inner Beast.

Also DPS disparity is not a problem when DRG was the top ST DPS and 300 DPS ahead of BRD/MCH which are also deemed "DPS". Now one will argue that BRD/MCH are support, but they aren't, SMN provides E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, tank pet and all those "supporty things" yet it is ~200ish DPS ahead of BRD/MCH. Yet, that is not considered a problem. Why should WAR doing 5% to 10% higher than its counterparts at the cost of being a riskier option be a problem?

No one is saying SMN shouldn't do that AoE DPS because NIN sucks at it either. No one is asking for NIN AoE buffs either.

Thril + Conva is fine if they're both combined and is not far worse than Rampart in either count.

By "uptime" I meant 20s up and 100s down for Thril+Conv compared to 20s up 70s down in Ramps. Ramps also is 25% effective HP and healing increase while Thrill is 20% (equivalent to 16.67% damage reduction) and requires Conv. to be combined for the 20% effective healing increase (to give the actual 16.67% mitigation). So in "both regards" Thril+Conv. is "worse" than Ramps. Being worse in BOTH regards, makes the combo "far worse". Specially that Ramps doesn't need Conv. which keeps it free for other uses. I only brought it up as a comparison of what options the WAR has while "locked" out of Defiance to achieve the maximum coveted DPS that everyone is so jealous of.

Either way, I wasn't trying to "exaggerate" any more than what this whole thread is about. The tanks have problems, but PLD's DPS is not one of them.

[Ultimatecalibur]

There is no problem that a class deals so much more damage than another when it is declared their "thing". As I said in my post, that "so much more damage" is only achievable at the cost of being not so tanky. You say WAR has Storm Path? Well, if WAR wants to reach that 15~20% more DPS than DRK/PLD, he HAS to never touch Storm Path or Inner Beast.

Wrong. Using Storms Path is only a 40 potency loss compared to BB. SP -> SE -> BB is only 1.7% less DpS than SP -> BB -> BB. Avoiding Storm's Path is not the incredible DpS gain you think it is.

Also DPS disparity is not a problem when DRG was the top ST DPS and 300 DPS ahead of BRD/MCH which are also deemed "DPS". Now one will argue that BRD/MCH are support, but they aren't, SMN provides E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, tank pet and all those "supporty things" yet it is ~200ish DPS ahead of BRD/MCH. Yet, that is not considered a problem. Why should WAR doing 5% to 10% higher than its counterparts at the cost of being a riskier option be a problem?

Because it is not "riskier" (despite what you believe) and grants greater benefits.

Also, the single target melee DpS (DRG, MNK and NIN) are balanced against each other, not against the ranged caster DpS (BLM/SMN) or ranged support DpS (BRD/MCH) (which are balanced against the others in their subroles). When DRG was provably the underperformer and NIN was overperforming during 2.4, NIN received a nerf and DRG received a serious boost in survivablity and DpS in 2.45. We just saw MNK receive some buffs in 3.07.

[Nomad-phx]

I was thinking Godhand healers dps-ing. If the DPS on original Oppressor can't get ahead of a 450 dps OT that's a on a different target ~60% of the fight, or even rip hate off of a 250 dps MT, they probably aren't doing much.

Little of both actually, I use my support skills often so I tend to stack as much aggro as I possibly can as early as I can, that war was super replaced after we checked the numbers lol

[Phoenicia]

Wrong. Using Storms Path is only a 40 potency loss compared to BB. SP -> SE -> BB is only 1.7% less DpS than SP -> BB -> BB. Avoiding Storm's Path is not the incredible DpS gain you think it is.

You just showed me that you have no idea how WAR works. WAR's Optimal rotation is: SE -> BB and Repeat! If you EVER need to apply path, replace a BB with SP (not SE, you never let SE drop).

SP -> SE -> BB is a massive DPS loss compared to SE -> BB. Both debuffs will drop before reapplication NO MATTER WHAT following SP -> SE -> BB. FC/IB/Fracture are just out of the question since if you use any of these you delay 1 more GCD without both of these debuffs.

SP -> BB -> BB is even worse. There is 0 slashing Debuff. And even that doesn't have 100% uptime on SP.

SP -> BB repeat is horrible DPS wise.

SP -> SE is just impossible to hold hate with.

As I said, it is IMPOSSIBLE to deal that 15% more DPS than the other tanks WHILE maintaining SP up. There is just no optimal way to maintain aggro/DPS while keeping both SE and SP up unless you have 2 warriors or WAR+NIN. And even then, 1 of the warriors (or the NIN) is losing DPS at the cost of that.

Because it is not "riskier" (despite what you believe) and grants greater benefits.

WAR is "riskier" because EVERY Fell Cleave you use is NOT Inner Beast. WAR's CDs, for the most part, require them to work for their effectiveness, unlike the press-and-forget nature of PLD/DRK's CDs.

Heck, one of WAR's CDs guarantees critical hits if they're not careful! In before you say add Awareness, you'd be just proving that WAR has to "work" for RI to be foolproof. (Make sure you face enemy or you get crit, or pop another CD).

WAR is all about trade-offs, something NONE of the other tanks deal with. If you want a one-to-one mechanic comparison and where WAR can make said trade-offs I can post again with a list of most of them for you to see how "risky" WAR is compared to PLD/DRK.

Also, the single target melee DpS (DRG, MNK and NIN) are balanced against each other, not against the ranged caster DpS (BLM/SMN) or ranged support DpS (BRD/MCH) (which are balanced against the others in their subroles). When DRG was provably the underperformer and NIN was overperforming during 2.4, NIN received a nerf and DRG received a serious boost in survivablity and DpS in 2.45. We just saw MNK receive some buffs in 3.07.

Single Target melee DPS is in this order: MNK > DRG > NIN. There is at least a 200 DPS variance between these three clases. (Tanks have a whooping 70 between WAR and PLD on a dummy!).

Before 3.07, MNK was basically equal to NIN and both under DRG (by about a 100), MNK got buffed so it is back on top since it provides no raid DPS boost outside of its personal individual DPS. There was a reason people dropped MNK for NIN. DRG was top DPS so it was a given, and between MNK and NIN, NIN provided TA (Direct raid DPS boost) and Goad (Indirect DPS boost) while MNK provided DK... Something that DRK could provide all the while bringing ~3% more DPS than PLD.

BRD/MCH being "support" DPS is an illusion. BRD and MCH are full fledged DPS as much as any other class tagged with a red icon. As I said earlier, SMN provides far more support than BRD and MCH in the form of E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, AOE bind, AOE slow, Blind, and tank pet. Yet SMN is never called "Support" and is above BRD and MCH in ST and just knocks EVERYONE out in AoE.

And again, there is ONE class that is worse than NIN in AoE, it happens to be a non-DPS class called PLD! (lol)... Why aren't NIN complaining that DRK and WAR, heck, even the healers, outdo them in AoE scenarios?

Again, PLDs asking for DPS increase are just looking at DPS in vacuum and forgetting everything else the classes have/deal with. I already posted what PLD needs and won't reiterate anymore.

This thread is already outta hand and should just die. There are more objective threads discussing tank balance out there instead of this asinine dragoon-minded one where the supporters of it are calling anyone who disagrees with them "Stupid" or "hypocrites".

[RapBreon]

BRD/MCH being "support" DPS is an illusion. BRD and MCH are full fledged DPS as much as any other class tagged with a red icon. As I said earlier, SMN provides far more support than BRD and MCH in the form of E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, AOE bind, AOE slow, Blind, and tank pet. Yet SMN is never called "Support" and is above BRD and MCH in ST and just knocks EVERYONE out in AoE.

Because I'm procrastinating like mad; I disagree with this point.

Infinity mana (sort of) is more valuable than almost anything else any of the other SMN support option by so many factors (minus maybe Brez). Lots of neat tricks is helpful and great for min-maxing, but healers being able to continue healing probs more important anything else support wise. I mean we could go full austimo reductionist and work out the actual value that mana returned converted into healing compared to the amount mitigated by the numerous SMN tricks.

Defs not an illusion when fair few groups can't even kill some turns without the mana being intravenously pumped into them by their MCH/BRD.

[Phoenicia]

Because I'm procrastinating like mad; I disagree with this point.
..
Defs not an illusion when fair few groups can't even kill some turns without the mana being intravenously pumped into them by their MCH/BRD.

The only way you can make healers run out of mana is if you have the DPS keep dying so the healers keep raising. Or the DPS keep getting hit by AoE and not dying but the healers keep spamming AoE heals. Both of which are "unnecessary".

The only way DPS will run out of TP in an actual fight is going into T8.

BRDs and MCHs will almost NEVER spend their MP on anything other than Foe's if the party knows what they're doing. So yeah, BRD and MCH are not "support" classes, but rather full fledged DPS with a support option.

The point was, every class has support abilities. Some more than others. Just having 1 or 2 "support" abilities doesn't pigeonhole the class into a role that doesn't exist in this game.

EDIT: The main point of the previous post is: DPS variance EXISTS even among the DPS classes. So tanks having DPS varience is NOT a problem.