PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Phoenicia]

I'm not pretending that Warrior DpS competes with actual DpS. I just see a problem when a Warrior is dealing ~115% to ~120% of the damage the other two tanks are without assistance and still keeps a ~5% to ~10% advantage when they do have it and at the same time can reach a similar levels of survivability in current content. The ability to mitigate as much as a PLD is not an advantage when you only need what the Warrior provides.

There is no problem that a class deals so much more damage than another when it is declared their "thing". As I said in my post, that "so much more damage" is only achievable at the cost of being not so tanky. You say WAR has Storm Path? Well, if WAR wants to reach that 15~20% more DPS than DRK/PLD, he HAS to never touch Storm Path or Inner Beast.

Also DPS disparity is not a problem when DRG was the top ST DPS and 300 DPS ahead of BRD/MCH which are also deemed "DPS". Now one will argue that BRD/MCH are support, but they aren't, SMN provides E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, tank pet and all those "supporty things" yet it is ~200ish DPS ahead of BRD/MCH. Yet, that is not considered a problem. Why should WAR doing 5% to 10% higher than its counterparts at the cost of being a riskier option be a problem?

No one is saying SMN shouldn't do that AoE DPS because NIN sucks at it either. No one is asking for NIN AoE buffs either.

Thril + Conva is fine if they're both combined and is not far worse than Rampart in either count.

By "uptime" I meant 20s up and 100s down for Thril+Conv compared to 20s up 70s down in Ramps. Ramps also is 25% effective HP and healing increase while Thrill is 20% (equivalent to 16.67% damage reduction) and requires Conv. to be combined for the 20% effective healing increase (to give the actual 16.67% mitigation). So in "both regards" Thril+Conv. is "worse" than Ramps. Being worse in BOTH regards, makes the combo "far worse". Specially that Ramps doesn't need Conv. which keeps it free for other uses. I only brought it up as a comparison of what options the WAR has while "locked" out of Defiance to achieve the maximum coveted DPS that everyone is so jealous of.

Either way, I wasn't trying to "exaggerate" any more than what this whole thread is about. The tanks have problems, but PLD's DPS is not one of them.

[Ultimatecalibur]

There is no problem that a class deals so much more damage than another when it is declared their "thing". As I said in my post, that "so much more damage" is only achievable at the cost of being not so tanky. You say WAR has Storm Path? Well, if WAR wants to reach that 15~20% more DPS than DRK/PLD, he HAS to never touch Storm Path or Inner Beast.

Wrong. Using Storms Path is only a 40 potency loss compared to BB. SP -> SE -> BB is only 1.7% less DpS than SP -> BB -> BB. Avoiding Storm's Path is not the incredible DpS gain you think it is.

Also DPS disparity is not a problem when DRG was the top ST DPS and 300 DPS ahead of BRD/MCH which are also deemed "DPS". Now one will argue that BRD/MCH are support, but they aren't, SMN provides E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, tank pet and all those "supporty things" yet it is ~200ish DPS ahead of BRD/MCH. Yet, that is not considered a problem. Why should WAR doing 5% to 10% higher than its counterparts at the cost of being a riskier option be a problem?

Because it is not "riskier" (despite what you believe) and grants greater benefits.

Also, the single target melee DpS (DRG, MNK and NIN) are balanced against each other, not against the ranged caster DpS (BLM/SMN) or ranged support DpS (BRD/MCH) (which are balanced against the others in their subroles). When DRG was provably the underperformer and NIN was overperforming during 2.4, NIN received a nerf and DRG received a serious boost in survivablity and DpS in 2.45. We just saw MNK receive some buffs in 3.07.

[Phoenicia]

Wrong. Using Storms Path is only a 40 potency loss compared to BB. SP -> SE -> BB is only 1.7% less DpS than SP -> BB -> BB. Avoiding Storm's Path is not the incredible DpS gain you think it is.

You just showed me that you have no idea how WAR works. WAR's Optimal rotation is: SE -> BB and Repeat! If you EVER need to apply path, replace a BB with SP (not SE, you never let SE drop).

SP -> SE -> BB is a massive DPS loss compared to SE -> BB. Both debuffs will drop before reapplication NO MATTER WHAT following SP -> SE -> BB. FC/IB/Fracture are just out of the question since if you use any of these you delay 1 more GCD without both of these debuffs.

SP -> BB -> BB is even worse. There is 0 slashing Debuff. And even that doesn't have 100% uptime on SP.

SP -> BB repeat is horrible DPS wise.

SP -> SE is just impossible to hold hate with.

As I said, it is IMPOSSIBLE to deal that 15% more DPS than the other tanks WHILE maintaining SP up. There is just no optimal way to maintain aggro/DPS while keeping both SE and SP up unless you have 2 warriors or WAR+NIN. And even then, 1 of the warriors (or the NIN) is losing DPS at the cost of that.

Because it is not "riskier" (despite what you believe) and grants greater benefits.

WAR is "riskier" because EVERY Fell Cleave you use is NOT Inner Beast. WAR's CDs, for the most part, require them to work for their effectiveness, unlike the press-and-forget nature of PLD/DRK's CDs.

Heck, one of WAR's CDs guarantees critical hits if they're not careful! In before you say add Awareness, you'd be just proving that WAR has to "work" for RI to be foolproof. (Make sure you face enemy or you get crit, or pop another CD).

WAR is all about trade-offs, something NONE of the other tanks deal with. If you want a one-to-one mechanic comparison and where WAR can make said trade-offs I can post again with a list of most of them for you to see how "risky" WAR is compared to PLD/DRK.

Also, the single target melee DpS (DRG, MNK and NIN) are balanced against each other, not against the ranged caster DpS (BLM/SMN) or ranged support DpS (BRD/MCH) (which are balanced against the others in their subroles). When DRG was provably the underperformer and NIN was overperforming during 2.4, NIN received a nerf and DRG received a serious boost in survivablity and DpS in 2.45. We just saw MNK receive some buffs in 3.07.

Single Target melee DPS is in this order: MNK > DRG > NIN. There is at least a 200 DPS variance between these three clases. (Tanks have a whooping 70 between WAR and PLD on a dummy!).

Before 3.07, MNK was basically equal to NIN and both under DRG (by about a 100), MNK got buffed so it is back on top since it provides no raid DPS boost outside of its personal individual DPS. There was a reason people dropped MNK for NIN. DRG was top DPS so it was a given, and between MNK and NIN, NIN provided TA (Direct raid DPS boost) and Goad (Indirect DPS boost) while MNK provided DK... Something that DRK could provide all the while bringing ~3% more DPS than PLD.

BRD/MCH being "support" DPS is an illusion. BRD and MCH are full fledged DPS as much as any other class tagged with a red icon. As I said earlier, SMN provides far more support than BRD and MCH in the form of E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, AOE bind, AOE slow, Blind, and tank pet. Yet SMN is never called "Support" and is above BRD and MCH in ST and just knocks EVERYONE out in AoE.

And again, there is ONE class that is worse than NIN in AoE, it happens to be a non-DPS class called PLD! (lol)... Why aren't NIN complaining that DRK and WAR, heck, even the healers, outdo them in AoE scenarios?

Again, PLDs asking for DPS increase are just looking at DPS in vacuum and forgetting everything else the classes have/deal with. I already posted what PLD needs and won't reiterate anymore.

This thread is already outta hand and should just die. There are more objective threads discussing tank balance out there instead of this asinine dragoon-minded one where the supporters of it are calling anyone who disagrees with them "Stupid" or "hypocrites".

[RapBreon]

BRD/MCH being "support" DPS is an illusion. BRD and MCH are full fledged DPS as much as any other class tagged with a red icon. As I said earlier, SMN provides far more support than BRD and MCH in the form of E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, AOE bind, AOE slow, Blind, and tank pet. Yet SMN is never called "Support" and is above BRD and MCH in ST and just knocks EVERYONE out in AoE.

Because I'm procrastinating like mad; I disagree with this point.

Infinity mana (sort of) is more valuable than almost anything else any of the other SMN support option by so many factors (minus maybe Brez). Lots of neat tricks is helpful and great for min-maxing, but healers being able to continue healing probs more important anything else support wise. I mean we could go full austimo reductionist and work out the actual value that mana returned converted into healing compared to the amount mitigated by the numerous SMN tricks.

Defs not an illusion when fair few groups can't even kill some turns without the mana being intravenously pumped into them by their MCH/BRD.

[Phoenicia]

Because I'm procrastinating like mad; I disagree with this point.
..
Defs not an illusion when fair few groups can't even kill some turns without the mana being intravenously pumped into them by their MCH/BRD.

The only way you can make healers run out of mana is if you have the DPS keep dying so the healers keep raising. Or the DPS keep getting hit by AoE and not dying but the healers keep spamming AoE heals. Both of which are "unnecessary".

The only way DPS will run out of TP in an actual fight is going into T8.

BRDs and MCHs will almost NEVER spend their MP on anything other than Foe's if the party knows what they're doing. So yeah, BRD and MCH are not "support" classes, but rather full fledged DPS with a support option.

The point was, every class has support abilities. Some more than others. Just having 1 or 2 "support" abilities doesn't pigeonhole the class into a role that doesn't exist in this game.

EDIT: The main point of the previous post is: DPS variance EXISTS even among the DPS classes. So tanks having DPS varience is NOT a problem.

[RapBreon]

The only way you can make healers run out of mana is if you have the DPS keep dying so the healers keep raising. Or the DPS keep getting hit by AoE and not dying but the healers keep spamming AoE heals. Both of which are "unnecessary".

The only way DPS will run out of TP in an actual fight is going into T8.

BRDs and MCHs will almost NEVER spend their MP on anything other than Foe's if the party knows what they're doing. So yeah, BRD and MCH are not "support" classes, but rather full fledged DPS with a support option.

Again, just having 1 or 2 "support" abilities doesn't pigeonhole the class into a role that doesn't exist in this game.

My healers must suck then when they scream for mana and our BRD lock-steps into that promotion (on proof-reading this sentence seems pointless). The absolute optimal performance is impossible for the majority of progression even for gods among men (which we are not...hahaha we are so not). I mean shit, even on non-extraneous damage being taken our healers still need a promo on A2.

You're being woefully reductionist on the number of support skills; the important part is what they do. Quant vs. Qual (wo)man.

Technically MCHs have like 40289218042 support skills, but most of them are fairly useless and/or negligible (though rend mind did save a tank once, I was like :O). Kind of like the SMNs ya know

Edit: As to your edit. I wasn't contesting that point, I agree with it. However, the links you drew between the DPS and that point weren't compelling.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Seeing as this thread has almost reached 500 posts, it makes sense that we're pretending AoE Bind, AoE 5% slow, Blind and TITAN EGI are viable support abilities LOL.

It's not about viability as much as the number of "support" abilities. SMN has 6 or so abilities categorized as "support".. That didn't pigeonhole it into a role that doesn't exist. Why is BRD, therefore, pigeonholed into this role because of 2 abilities? I know BRD also has Bind and Silence which are largely useless in most raids. But there were turns that needed them and BRD got that responsibility. T2 Silence and T7 Bind. Oh, but T7, SMN (or even SCH) did a better job kiting those Renaudes at a lower DPS cost raid-wide.

Oh and DEFINITELY Quality over Quantity.

EVERY class in this game has support, regardless of viability. BLM has Apocastasys that people "swore" by how good it was in FCoB, now it's even better than ever before!

DRG has Battle Litany and Pierce buff. MNK has Dragon Kick and Mantra, NIN has Trick Attack and Goad and many other lolviable "support" abilities. Those classes ARE picked BECAUSE of those said abilities. EDIT: Ninja provides the all awesome smoke screen and shadow whatever (Transfer hate).

Heck, PLD has Stoneskin, Protect, Clemency, Divine Veil and Cover to name a few. Why isn't classified "Support tank". I mean that would shut people up from requesting more DPS at the least. lol

Back to point, "support" as a role doesn't exist in this game and everyone provides it. There is no reason to pigeonhole a class or two into said role when it doesn't exist.

And regardless or having support or not, the original point (again) is that DPS variance between classes has always been a "thing" even among DPS classes in the same role (melee/ranged/caster). Why is it NOT okay for tanks to have an 8% DPS difference? Specially when the class that provides the higher numbers, does it at the cost of many trade-offs, which again, I will happily dedicate a single post showing MANY scenarios of said trade-offs.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

BRD/MCH being "support" DPS is an illusion. As I said earlier, SMN provides far more support than BRD and MCH in the form of E4E, Virus, Battle Rez, AOE bind, AOE slow, Blind, and tank pet. Yet SMN is never called "Support" and is above BRD and MCH in ST and just knocks EVERYONE out in AoE..

Seeing as this thread has almost reached 500 posts, it makes sense that we're pretending AoE Bind, AoE 5% slow, Blind and TITAN EGI are viable support abilities LOL.

Summoner support, with the exception of battle rez, isn't as potent as BRD/MCH support (TP/MP regen, Damage Buff [Foes/Hyper Charge], Damage Reduction (Rend Mind/Dismantle)]. Also, Virus/E4E are usable by ALL the mages so that's hardly worth giving them the title of Support DPS. The only class summoners edge out in support is Black Mage because they can't battle rez.

Anyway, LETS KEEP THE DISCUSSION GOING!

EDIT: OMG it reached 500 before I finished posting!!

#FormsForever

[Ivellior]

You can't compare different things in order to make a point. You can't say the damage the other tanks do on optimal damage rotation damage is close to the damage WAR does while doing enmity rotation damage and because of that it's fine.

Is WAR MT damage in MT stance greater than the other tanks? It is.
Is WAR MT damage in OT stance greater than the other tanks? It is.
Is WAR OT damage doing their optimal dps rotation greater than the other tanks? It is.

You said yourself that WAR is better as MT because it mitigates better and the other tanks should be OT.
So WAR mitigates better the tank busters but somehow is riskier because:

WAR is "riskier" because EVERY Fell Cleave you use is NOT Inner Beast. WAR's CDs, for the most part, require them to work for their effectiveness, unlike the press-and-forget nature of PLD/DRK's CDs.

Heck, one of WAR's CDs guarantees critical hits if they're not careful! In before you say add Awareness, you'd be just proving that WAR has to "work" for RI to be foolproof. (Make sure you face enemy or you get crit, or pop another CD).

WAR is all about trade-offs, something NONE of the other tanks deal with. If you want a one-to-one mechanic comparison and where WAR can make said trade-offs I can post again with a list of most of them for you to see how "risky" WAR is compared to PLD/DRK.

I don't get it. Isn't having that option being more efficient instead of being riskier? I don't think any of the other tanks would complain if you gave them an ability to use a defensive cooldown to provide a damage buff or extra damage instead of defence. I think most tanks would cry of joy.
And for the above example in specific:
If you are MT in tank stance you'll have to use the Inner Beast anyway. No trade-off.
If you are OT you not taking damage from the boss so you don't have Inner Beast just sitting there and doing nothing. Instead you the ability to use can use it to do extra damage. No trade-off.
If you are MT in dps stance you just need to press one extra button to change to tank stance and use it. The tank stance doesn't cost anything, doesn't break your combo, doesn't loose your stacks and is off the global cooldown. There is no literally no trade-off. You just press an extra button.

The only situation where you might need the cooldown and not have it is not having enough stacks. Not enough stacks? You can use Infuriate which still costs you nothing and is off the global cooldown. 3 buttons. Don't have Infuriate or don't want to use it because you will have to sacrifice damage later on? You can use another cooldown. WAR has those as well.
It can also happen to other tanks if they used a cooldown too late and it's not ready for the tank buster. It's not specific to WAR. And to be fair, the situation above will usually occur only a couple of times when you are learning a new battle / boss. After that all tanks will know the proper timings.

So you are not trading damage for risk, at best you are trading damage for a little more complexity. And even at the one point you actually have to get "riskier" with Raw Intuition the cross class skill Awareness has you covered. And I don't really consider a useful cross skill as a tradeoff. It's not as if you actually have to sacrifice another useful cross-class skill to get it. Now compare that now how useful the other tanks' cross-class skills are.

The problem is that with the current raid design there is absolutely no tradeoff for tanks for going damage instead of defence. Getting more than the minimum required defences actually puts a burden on your raid team since it makes it harder to get dps check.
And since the other tanks don't offer anything other than defences WAR is the mandatory tank for raid groups.
That's the main reason people are complaining about damage. There are 2 ways to fix this. Either give them damage (the easiest way) or change the raid design (ie Tank META).
Changing the raid design isn't likely to happen any time soon. I seriously doubt they will hotfix/patch extra damage on bosses. So for a short term solution increasing the other tanks' damage seems to be more plausible.

Basically one of the following things will happen:
1. They can increase the other tanks' damage in patch soon and keep the same tank meta. This will make most people in this thread happy.
2. They can keep the tank damage as it is and change the META in the next raid (3.2?). Complains will keep going on until people get enough ilvl to clear Savage but will still persist until the next raid comes along.
3. They can keep the tank damage as it is, keep the same META but give some support abilities to the other tanks to make more wanted in parties. That's also something that wont happen soon. Complains will keep going on until people get enough ilvl to clear Savage but will still persist until they announce or implement the changes.
4. They can keep the tank damage as it and keep the same META. Complains will keep going on until people get enough ilvl to clear Savage but will still persist until the next raid comes along and people will start complaining even more when after the new raid launches.

EDIT:
For my part I would actually prefer that they actually change the META rather than give tanks more damage.