Yoshi P / Dev Team: FAVOR System - Please Fix This BROKEN System

[Aeyis]

But introducing it before the reward is even realized would be pretty unfortunate for those who were at the leading edge.

This comparison makes no sense. You cannot buy item drops from Alex after you already got yours for the week.
However for crafting having more materials on the market is in your benefit.

Regardless of whether its because you can get more, or others.


Besides, everyone expected a change. Anyone that did use the favors or tokens or whatever did so fully expecting it. Nay, hoping for it despite using their items.


Saying that it would be unfair to suddenly have higher yield despite all of this, just means you are using the argument for arguments sake rather then actually considering if it applies here.


''It would be unfair'' No, it would not. Unfair is having the system in its previous broken state implemented in the first place.

[Thrustie]

Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.



You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

When there's any reward at all? I don't care where the line is drawn as long as there's SOME reward realized. All I'm saying that 5 weeks in when there's no carrot at all is clearly too soon. Is it selfish? Sure in some respect although I'm clearly not the only person who's partcipated. It's equally, if not more, selfish for you to suggest that it's fair or reasonable for us who have done favors to this point to fall from the leading edge to the back of the pack.

Oh god. A fantasy? It's what a large portion of the community believes will happen based on the fact the new gear gives us a whole bunch of stats that there's no recipes for. So no, it's not silly at all. It's a reasonable expectation given the current knowledge we have.

You just compared crafting to a flipping holiday steam sale! Seriously? Pot meet kettle?

[Thrustie]

This comparison makes no sense. You cannot buy item drops from Alex after you already got yours for the week.
However for crafting having more materials on the market is in your benefit.

Regardless of whether its because you can get more, or others.


Besides, everyone expected a change. Anyone that did use the favors or tokens or whatever did so fully expecting it. Nay, hoping for it despite using their items.


Saying that it would be unfair to suddenly have higher yield despite all of this, just means you are using the argument for arguments sake rather then actually considering if it applies here.


''It would be unfair'' No, it would not. Unfair is having the system in its previous broken state implemented in the first place.

You talk like you speak on behalf of the whole community. You don't. I wanted a change to the time spent, not the yield, so get off your pedestal. It's not an argument for the sake of an argument. Your points do nothing to diminish the fact that suddenly increasing the yield 5 weeks into a progression patch where people can bank and hoard tokens would have been goofy and unfair. Your silly Miss Cleo crystal ball argument doesn't hold any water. There's people out there who probably did favors and don't even come on these forums.

You perceive that the whole crafting system is broken. I've seen your tirades in every thread for the past month. So it's no surprise that you believe any change to the system is warranted and desired. Not everyone agrees with you and your lack of empathy for anyone with an opinion differing from yours really discredits you.

[Rath]

Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.



You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

Now they are making adjustments due to players not being able to participate, not really nerfing the content. Later they will nerf content by easing the restrictions as they always do. That allows new players to catch up quicker while old players continue on with new content. It does not remove the benefits of doing it before they ease the restrictions.

Thrustie never asked for an immediate reward, he said he would be upset if they increased the yield after using the system as they designed it before it even became useful. What you are saying is there is no problem if they released supra and waited until people got it, then allowed you to get it by turning in FC3 instead of MCD without actually having a use for the supra yet.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I agree that increasing yield would be a bad fix. I do want a meaningful fix, though. I'd love to see them move favors to blue scrip. Then put some of the two star crafting mats on the law vendor and we'd actually have a fairly functional system.

Making favors blue scrips is a bad idea, it would absolutely flood the market and everyone would have every item as soon as they could gather all of the materials. Despite the fact that they currently serve no use, they are top tier equipment. The gear you get for the actual red scrips is the casual gear, not the crafted gear from the favour mats. You would not even need the items to be on a tome vendor as you can gather blue scrips as much as you want.

[Ossom]

You talk like you speak on behalf of the whole community. You don't. I wanted a change to the time spent, not the yield, so get off your pedestal. It's not an argument for the sake of an argument. Your points do nothing to diminish the fact that suddenly increasing the yield 5 weeks into a progression patch where people can bank and hoard tokens would have been goofy and unfair. Your silly Miss Cleo crystal ball argument doesn't hold any water. There's people out there who probably did favors and don't even come on these forums.

You perceive that the whole crafting system is broken. I've seen your tirades in every thread for the past month. So it's no surprise that you believe any change to the system is warranted and desired. Not everyone agrees with you and your lack of empathy for anyone with an opinion differing from yours really discredits you.

100% Agree. I see her post in every thread as if the favor system is completely broken and the only way it could be fixed is if other gatherers used their red scrips to gatherer her favor items and sell them to her for cheap.That's what she wants, but its not gonna happen.

I've been doing favors since the get go and the old system worked for me, I had pretty much full WVR set done before 3.07 and now I almost have the full LTW set done also. Im about 4 pieces away from being done and moving on to the next set. System seems to be working very fine.

@Seorin you nerf content when it is no longer thee relevant content of the game at the time. Right now, Favors and 2 Star crafts are the end game. When should this stuff be nerfed? In 3.2~3.4 When 3 star comes out and we are looking at newer accessories or full sets of gear. This is how they've always done nerfs. With raids and with gathering requirements.

[Aeyis]

You talk like you speak on behalf of the whole community. You don't.

I talk as tho I got a clear understanding of many (not all) perspectives that people in our community will have on (this) topic.
I do. Because I try to understanding perspectives that arent mine.
As is outlined in my arguments. You can always read those, and see for yourself.
I never claim to speak for 100% of the community. But if I bother to make posts like those you can be damned I'll understand most of the (realistic) perspectives involved.
Which I show via my arguments.

I wanted a change to the time spent, not the yield, so get off your pedestal.

My ''pedestal'' is made up by my arguments. If you don't want me to look down from on top of them, you should consider actually trying to use solid arguments yourself.
But all you can seem to do is defend a failing system (of crafting, of gathering).

It's not an argument for the sake of an argument.

Yes it is, otherwise you would respond to my individual arguments, instead of responding to my posts in their entirety, and claiming I'm ''on a high horse'' and ''falsely claiming to represent the community''.

Your points do nothing to diminish the fact that suddenly increasing the yield 5 weeks into a progression patch where people can bank and hoard tokens would have been goofy and unfair. Your silly Miss Cleo crystal ball argument doesn't hold any water. There's people out there who probably did favors and don't even come on these forums.

Ofcourse there are. Just as there are many more who didnt do favors and don't even come on these forums. Only a very small % of people in general use these forums.
That's no argument for your cause, or mine.

I believe they did diminish it, since it's not a ''fact'' to begin with. Remember favor grinding was a huge grind. I can confidently say that the majority of those that did favor grind before, were pretty hardcore. We have some of the most hardcore players in this game fervently arguing against gathering and crafting in its (previous)/ current state.

As someone who actually did spend my tokens, I too felt it would be fair to increase them.


Because the system needed to be changed, and im not selfish enough to screw over the rest of the community for my own selfish desires.
Or for that my matter, to screw myself over. A boost to yield would also effect my own future yields.


I mentioned this argument several times, you've yet to properly respond to it even once, why?
- If material yield is increased, then your own future yield is also increased.
You wouldnt lose out, you would gain.


Ofcourse it would have been better to increase the yield sooner. Did you perchance also read over the parts in previous posts where I said they should have made these adjustments before even letting the system go live?
I guess you did.

You perceive that the whole crafting system is broken.

Yes, and apparently a whole lot of people agree with me. Everyone with enough information should, I think.

I've seen your tirades in every thread for the past month. So it's no surprise that you believe any change to the system is warranted and desired.

Where did you read that? Because I would only want an actual good change. As for my tirades, I've made several constructed posts on why the systems are broken.
You are free to disagree with my conclusions, but its hard to argue with the facts I've posted in the past. (lack of recipes, poorly tuned)

Not everyone agrees with you and your lack of empathy for anyone with an opinion differing from yours really discredits you.

I dont think you can discredit me. Unfortunately you dont respond to arguments, you only attack.


I have a lot of empathy for people that disagree with me. But I don't have much empathy for mules who hit walls 5 times in a row and insist there is no wall in front of them.
If you go out of your way to ''disagree'', while also avoiding responding to arguments; then yes; you wont get much empathy from me.

[Aeyis]

Because there is one kind of people I can't stand. These kind:





And to be blunt, your posts (on the topic of crafting and gathering in HW) are kind of like this.


If you want to look down on me, then earn that right. By building a mountain of solid arguments you can stand on top, and look down on me. So that you can truly say ''I do not argue, for arguments sake. Here are my arguments to blow yours away, and prove it''


Otherwise, this is as much as I'll care to properly respond to your posts.


Because your only ridiculing yourself as someone not invested into gathering or crafting by comparing things like raiding and crafting.

[Ossom]

You keep claiming the system is failing. Your entire argument is built up on the system failing. But it hasn't failed, so your argument is completely flawed. But when people say your argument is flawed you act like you went around the different servers and did some sort of poll to prove yourself right, but you didn't. You see, you lack any evidence but are making wild claims of how bad the system is.

You have no arguments, we don't need to build arguments to tell you that yours are flawed. You present nothing valuable to the conversation except for your desire to see the system changed for the better of you and you alone, which is quite childish.

You believe that people who participated in the system before the patch should be punished and that gatherers and DoW/DoM should do all the heavily lifting so that they can rush to sell you the 2 star materials super cheap so that you don't have to do anything. It's very greedy, self centered view.

We can keep bickering about this but their not gonna nerf it for ya, you might as well enjoy what you have or quit crafting or quit the game. I don't know what else to tell you.

[Sibyll]

snip

I might have misinterpreted your post or worded mine poorly, but yes I was trying to say that by allowing more players to participate in Favor farming it would open up more potential supply on the market board. This of course assumes that the people that begin doing these will be doing it to sell and not for personal use.

To address the argument at hand, I think we can at least agree that people were dissatisfied with both the time required to obtain the materials and the yield/RNG per favor. From the stand point of trying to increase overall materials on the board I still think that reducing the time commitment is the better approach to begin with because it increases QoL for people already doing the Favors while making it more accessible to those who were deterred from it. A flat yield increase would of course increase QoL for people doing it because they'd have to do less favors or get more for the ones they already are doing, but I don't see this mattering to someone that didn't want to spend 15 mins per favor because they didn't want to spend 15 mins gathering an RNG drop. I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate a yield increase, but for me the time was the discouraging factor more than the yields were and it's not obvious to me that a flat yield increase would outweigh the benefit of opening up more people to spending their scrips on favors.

Honestly I don't think even yield increases will change the problem with the inherently convoluted system. Gathering favors only serves to give pure crafters a way of obtaining favor materials to turn-in for the actual crafting materials, but this could've been accomplished by just having a flat exchange between RGTs and favor materials. If they insist on keeping the RNG then the favors could be a satchel that you open for a chance to drop some RNG amount of Ooids and possibly Roundstones of the appropriate zone.

The other thing is they have alienated so much of the player base from participating in the economy by designing it this way. In 2.x you had Tomes which allowed anyone with a max level combat class to sell materials on the marketboard. Ehcatl Sealants allowed anyone that had a level 1 DoH/DoL class and rep capped Ixali to make pretty easy money. With Red Scrips you need a max level gatherer that is at least geared in the blue scrip gear and has a HQ crafted MH/OH and at least 2.x melded accessories. At this point the only way to get the non-crafter/gathers into the system is to have materials that are purchased via Law tomes and I do not see a way of doing that works with the current design.

I don't understand why they removed DoW/DoM from the economy in the manner they did, while at the same time giving us i180 DoW/DoM recipes.

[Aeyis]

To address the argument at hand, I think we can at least agree that people were dissatisfied with both the time required to obtain the materials and the yield/RNG per favor. From the stand point of trying to increase overall materials on the board I still think that reducing the time commitment is the better approach to begin with because it increases QoL for people already doing the Favors while making it more accessible to those who were deterred from it. A flat yield increase would of course increase QoL for people doing it because they'd have to do less favors or get more for the ones they already are doing, but I don't see this mattering to someone that didn't want to spend 15 mins per favor because they didn't want to spend 15 mins gathering an RNG drop.

Personally I think a larger yield would be better.. Altho a smaller farming time does make them easier to obtain, it also makes them a bit (more) stressful.

Favors are not fun to do, as you have to hurry from node to node, and you cannot even stop to reply a quick message to a FC or linkshell chat. With a larger yield it wouldnt matter so much anymore if you did stop to type something in chat.

In that sense by ''larger yield'' you could compare it to say, the current favor system but with double the red scrips weekly cap.
Time investment would still be needed, but you wouldnt feel too stressed doing them.

I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate a yield increase, but for me the time was the discouraging factor more than the yields were and it's not obvious to me that a flat yield increase would outweigh the benefit of opening up more people to spending their scrips on favors.

For me as well, but only partly. I also had to look ahead and realise that the supply of favor materials I could obtain were not enough. Ultimately if its 4 hours or 11 doesnt matter much to be if you can't obtain the materials needed.

I agree that having them spawn faster rather then a larger yield does seem to improve morale when doing them. It's a much better feeling when they spawn after a few nodes, and can spawn back to back; compared to going 10-15 minutes without on a bad streak.

Honestly I don't think even yield increases will change the problem with the inherently convoluted system. Gathering favors only serves to give pure crafters a way of obtaining favor materials to turn-in for the actual crafting materials, but this could've been accomplished by just having a flat exchange between RGTs and favor materials. If they insist on keeping the RNG then the favors could be a satchel that you open for a chance to drop some RNG amount of Ooids and possibly Roundstones of the appropriate zone.

The other thing is they have alienated so much of the player base from participating in the economy by designing it this way. In 2.x you had Tomes which allowed anyone with a max level combat class to sell materials on the marketboard. Ehcatl Sealants allowed anyone that had a level 1 DoH/DoL class to make pretty easy money. With Red Scrips you need a max level gatherer that is at least geared in the blue scrip gear and has a hq crafted MH/OH and at least 2.x melded accessories.

That is my sentiment as well. That is also my main argument on this topic. There's no question that the favor buff makes it easier to obtain favors. And likely increases their market supply as a result.

But the system of crafting and gathering combined (specially 2*, red scrips) has too many redundant steps and odd tuning.


It strikes me every time I go to look at the latest material updates on the mb, and I have to look for 5 refined materials, 5 crafting turn ins and 20 favor materials.
6 items just for one type of crafted item. On top of that there's red scrips, and the tokens as well.


It's all just so..awkwardly designed. Gathering has it a bit better then crafting, but even then..


As far the material limit goes: as I mentioned before a lot of people have tomes tokens saved up so I don't expect many people to complain about the system right after the favor buff. When you have 5 weeks worth of red scrips the cap doesnt seem like an issue. But after they run out, or new people start doing red scrips I think they (crafters, as it doesnt effect pure gatherers much) will soon realise that getting favor materials faster does not help as much as it seemed to at the start (of the buff).