Yoshi P / Dev Team: FAVOR System - Please Fix This BROKEN System

[Thrustie]

I never stated I expected it to remain this way forever. I expect it to mostly stay status quo until the carrot is introduced: 3 star recipes. I have no problem with content eventually getting nerfed as it becomes dated. The problem is I'm not "first" to anything right now. There's nothing worth crafting at this point other than crafting gear. It appears they're pushing us to prepare for whenever the next crafting patch hits. If I'm wrong and the only reward in this patch is to craft 2 star gear nobody wants then you're correct, I'm wasting my window to be first. If I'm correct though, and this patch is more about progression, if they had increased the yield everyone who banked tokens would have leap frogged me and it would have compromised my ability to be first when new recipes are introduced. That would have been frustrating for me and rendered my last few weeks as, not only a waste of time, but also a detriment to my overall progression.

It's like if they suddenly nerfed Alex Savage, doubled the chests and at the same time told everyone that every Savage floor they hadn't cleared for the past 5 weeks was banked. Now all the groups who hadn't progressed as far (or at all) could quickly catch the front runners AND surpass them because they have banked runs and double the chests. Sure eventually this may happen down the road. But introducing it before the reward is even realized would be pretty unfortunate for those who were at the leading edge.

[seorin]

I have no problem with content eventually getting nerfed

Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.

If I'm correct though, and this patch is more about progression...

You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

[Thrustie]

Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.



You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

When there's any reward at all? I don't care where the line is drawn as long as there's SOME reward realized. All I'm saying that 5 weeks in when there's no carrot at all is clearly too soon. Is it selfish? Sure in some respect although I'm clearly not the only person who's partcipated. It's equally, if not more, selfish for you to suggest that it's fair or reasonable for us who have done favors to this point to fall from the leading edge to the back of the pack.

Oh god. A fantasy? It's what a large portion of the community believes will happen based on the fact the new gear gives us a whole bunch of stats that there's no recipes for. So no, it's not silly at all. It's a reasonable expectation given the current knowledge we have.

You just compared crafting to a flipping holiday steam sale! Seriously? Pot meet kettle?

[Rath]

Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.



You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

Now they are making adjustments due to players not being able to participate, not really nerfing the content. Later they will nerf content by easing the restrictions as they always do. That allows new players to catch up quicker while old players continue on with new content. It does not remove the benefits of doing it before they ease the restrictions.

Thrustie never asked for an immediate reward, he said he would be upset if they increased the yield after using the system as they designed it before it even became useful. What you are saying is there is no problem if they released supra and waited until people got it, then allowed you to get it by turning in FC3 instead of MCD without actually having a use for the supra yet.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I agree that increasing yield would be a bad fix. I do want a meaningful fix, though. I'd love to see them move favors to blue scrip. Then put some of the two star crafting mats on the law vendor and we'd actually have a fairly functional system.

Making favors blue scrips is a bad idea, it would absolutely flood the market and everyone would have every item as soon as they could gather all of the materials. Despite the fact that they currently serve no use, they are top tier equipment. The gear you get for the actual red scrips is the casual gear, not the crafted gear from the favour mats. You would not even need the items to be on a tome vendor as you can gather blue scrips as much as you want.

[Hanmerreborn]

Making favors blue scrips is a bad idea, it would absolutely flood the market and everyone would have every item as soon as they could gather all of the materials. Despite the fact that they currently serve no use, they are top tier equipment. The gear you get for the actual red scrips is the casual gear, not the crafted gear from the favour mats. You would not even need the items to be on a tome vendor as you can gather blue scrips as much as you want.

Why do you feel this is a bad thing? Why is everyone having the opportunity to make/obtain high level gear induce such a level of distaste from the "hardcore"? Because it takes away your ability to make millions? Because you don't get to feel awesome and special wearing a special glamour?

Gates don't help "casuals", they keep them in a permanent underclass.

[Rath]

Why do you feel this is a bad thing? Why is everyone having the opportunity to make/obtain high level gear induce such a level of distaste from the "hardcore"? Because it takes away your ability to make millions? Because you don't get to feel awesome and special wearing a special glamour?.

I am a casual fyi. Edited when I got home from here on: So I have no idea what distaste you are referring to.

Casual does not mean lazy, lower class, not willing to earn things, and it does not mean I do not like to feel a sense of accomplishment. It also has nothing to do with making millions. I get to make millions, and feel awesome when I have a special glamour. It has nothing to do with hardcore or casual.

Gates don't help "casuals", they keep them in a permanent underclass.

In fact removing gates that affect the hardcore allows them to remain ahead of anyone with less time, as favors from blue scrips would allow. You can get thousands of blue scrips daily, but not if you are a casual player with less time. You would be forced to buy mats or fall behind if you were aiming for scrip gear or crafted gear. The current rgs gate slows everyone to a very casual pace. You need to craft 1-7 items daily for your scrips or all at once, your choice. You can then buy the casual gear with your scrips tokens, or use favor mats and your tokens to obtain the mats to craft non-casual gear that requires melds.

One option requires little to no effort for gear that is better then anything but the HQ crafted/melded 2 star gear. The other is the more expensive HQ 2 star melded option. Both options have very little advantage over the HQ melded non-starred lvl 60 gear.

Even with billions in gil the resources are limited since the gatherers supplying the mats are also restricted by RGS. This further gates those with more time and allows casual players time to catch up before this gear is actually needed for something.

[Hanmerreborn]

I am a casual fyi.

Doesn't really answer the question.

[Hanmerreborn]

I am a casual fyi. Edited when I got home from here on: So I have no idea what distaste you are referring to.

Casual does not mean lazy, lower class, not willing to earn things, and it does not mean I do not like to feel a sense of accomplishment. It also has nothing to do with making millions. I get to make millions, and feel awesome when I have a special glamour. It has nothing to do with hardcore or casual.



In fact removing gates that affect the hardcore allows them to remain ahead of anyone with less time, as favors from blue scrips would allow. You can get thousands of blue scrips daily, but not if you are a casual player with less time. You would be forced to buy mats or fall behind if you were aiming for scrip gear or crafted gear. The current rgs gate slows everyone to a very casual pace. You need to craft 1-7 items daily for your scrips or all at once, your choice. You can then buy the casual gear with your scrips tokens, or use favor mats and your tokens to obtain the mats to craft non-casual gear that requires melds.

One option requires little to no effort for gear that is better then anything but the HQ crafted/melded 2 star gear. The other is the more expensive HQ 2 star melded option. Both options have very little advantage over the HQ melded non-starred lvl 60 gear.

Even with billions in gil the resources are limited since the gatherers supplying the mats are also restricted by RGS. This further gates those with more time and allows casual players time to catch up before this gear is actually needed for something.

What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.


He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

The question was why does he feel that way. His initial statement of him being a causal didn't answer that question (my quote was a full quote at the time).


But this system still benefits the hardcore, while only succeeding in breaking casuals into two lesser tiers based on a) seniority and b) luck.

For A:

A crafter/gatherer who hits 60 today can NOT catch up to those who hit 60 when red scrips hit without having to mysteriously gain a fortune to buy his way to catch up (something a fresh 60 will not have normally, funneling those towards RMT), which only positions the hardcore/early adopters even further from the gains made exploiting those who lag behind. No matter how much time commitment that person makes, they can never reach the level of other crafters merely by starting LATER.

This problem is further exacerbated with each and every subsequent patch. 3.1 starts soon, today's 60 crafter/gatherer will be woefully unprepared for the new recipes because they won't have the necessary means of acquiring the correct tools and gear to then make whatever is required to get the yellow scrips (problem 1). Yes, reds will likely be unlimited at that point, but now you're playing super catch up at the same exact moment you need to start progressing into the next tier, and for any casual player, that will cause them to lag behind in at least the first few weeks without once again, a large gold investment (problem 2).

A solution to problem 1 would be to have "rollover" maximums with all gating tokens. Instead of being 450 weekly, be a counter. You've made 410 this week, next week you can do 490 because the maximum will be 900 total gathered scrips. Those that started today, congratulations, you can turn in red scrips for 2k+ total this week should you be so inclined. This way newer players aren't punished just for starting later.

The solution to problem 2 is already done in DoW/M, give the high and low tier from the same item. You turn in a red scrip item, you get some blue scrips to catch up on your goldsmith because you focused on weaver first. Turn in a blue, get a small amount of red/yellow. Just like how you get eso/law concurrently. Yellow comes out, you can attempt to make it, hit the lowest collectibility (or miss the lowest) because you are under-geared because of problem 1, but you still get some reds so you can still gear up without having to make 3 tiers of items simultaneously.


For B:

Who knows what the hell SE is doing or going to do. As we all know, those who hit 60 CUL/Gold reaped the rewards in the scrip systems with low cost items but equal or higher gains. Yes, that's different now, but once again this goes back to early adopters in problem A.

Then, there's the fact that the recipes are seemingly completely lacking and completely missing in some instances. Imagine if 1 star gear was the current red scrip and you found out after making a full set of CUL that there would be no 2 star? Which goes back to the idea of removing them entirely, or making omnicraft sets with special glamours only for crafters (for example, there would be astral chest of crafting, and then boltmaster would be an easy to make glamour you could put on).



All in all, the system still sucks. Any hardcore player can easily get around the imposed limitations through alternate characters (much like the top raiders do currently), or through excessive amounts of gil, both of which they easily have access to. All the while punishing everyone else.

[Aeyis]

Why do you feel this is a bad thing? Why is everyone having the opportunity to make/obtain high level gear induce such a level of distaste from the "hardcore"? Because it takes away your ability to make millions? Because you don't get to feel awesome and special wearing a special glamour?

Gates don't help "casuals", they keep them in a permanent underclass.

What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.

Doesn't really answer the question.

He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

[Rath]

What you are suggesting favors the hardcore actually. Since time investment would still be required.


Don't consider this topic a hardcore vs casual discussion, because it is not.

I'm aware that some give the impression that it's hardcore players disagreeing, but dont be fooled.
Hardcore and casuals alike would rather see a system where we werent gated by RNG grinding, weekly caps, and with an actual reward at the end.


He is whatever is required to make it seem like he's arguing from the right point of view. Which in this case would be the ''casual point of view'', so he's a casual.

I have been casual since mid-point of 1.0 (Had kids, what can you do!), and always been casual while posting on these forums, and I have never claimed otherwise. The fact that you disbelieve anything anyone says that is contrary to your point of view (until they post SS to shut you up, in which you say something to attempt to not be wrong.) says much about you. Would you like to see a family picture with my wife and kids? How about my work too!

Until then you spend obsessive ammounts of time dissecting their posts and getting offensive when they do not do the same to yours. Thus baiting them to play your game. When those you are doing this with stop playing your game, you move on to another topic that appears to be a "hot" topic and do it all over again. Even at times changing your view to suit the new topic. If anyone brings this up, you just say something about ignore button and make a quick lame explanation. You are the worst kind of troll, as you convince yourself you are not doing it.

Btw, your last post. the line "Mostly due to speculation however" is your "I was not wrong" from previous posts how nothing changed. Do not expect me to begin arguing with you either. I am only replying to you now at my wifes behest.