Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide

[Judge_Xero]

With a base 3.0 recast timer and over a 10 minute test, it would be 200 casts. 3 sec / 600 sec = 200 swings.

If I were to test it with an absurd amount of spell speed and let the Enhanced Pet Actions buff proc at will (currently turning off pet attack when the buff procs) and using the same 10 minute model it'd be quite easy to see an increase in swing numbers. The damage wouldn't matter, just seeing if there's a big difference in swing numbers. Would require strict 10 minute time limit.

Thanks again for all the work you are doing.

Keep in mind that although Garuda's Wind Slash is a 3s CD, for testing purposes it does seem to work as Shinryu says, that it's a little bit higher, whether that is due to the AI not pre-queing skills or w/e.

On the quick testing I did a few pages back (edited my post so it may not have been noticed) I decided on low Crit, with Garuda doing 5 minute trials. This seemed to alleviate most of the procs interfering with data. Unfortunately, those short tests show such a small difference it's hard to get any sort of comparison even with the +377 Spell Speed that I used.

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One idea may be that if Ifrit's AA is confirmed @ X time, then you could always directly compare any results to his # of AA's. (assuming his AA isn't somehow effected by SPD too, and assuming that neither AA or Skills are delayed by any level of clipping from each other)

If the parse runs long enough then it could possibly even out any effect that procing EP has on the data so that you could correct for it.

[Aikaal]

Dreadwyrm Trance Duration: 15 seconds
Fester Recast: 10 seconds

Not sure how you're doing that lol.

DWT > Fester at 1 GCD in. Fester + Deathflare on the last Ruin II.

[Minorinz]

How can you say there is no way SS will be better than Crit? What, you think it is ...

Have you ever seen parses with people saying i could've done better with a higher crit rate even if it's by 1-2%? I have. I have seen the difference of dps output with crit in 3.0 because i've pased so many times that I don't need a formula to tell me that. The discussion was about mostly det vs ss at the beginning then ss is now better than crit and det lol who's being arrogant here without proof? I have proof with my parses I can show them here all day every day and average them out. Again, I'm just being realistic about what I experience.

About GCDs, bio and ruin 2 are instant on gcds with 0 cast time, if ss is supposed to be top secondary stat then where does it exactly shine?!??!?! our ruin is already low on potency and weaving CDs will require you to use ruin 2, although a funny thought would be a smn asking for arrow which is an attack speed buff from astro over litany which is a 15% crit rate how's that even, I don't know I guess it's just me? See blm would die to get arrow and blm would benefit from arrow way more than smn which already tells you something.

Like i said i can show you my parses with the crit rate difference for you to see with your own eyes.

Nail what down? that SS is the best secondary stat for smn? well good luck with that!!

[T0rin]

So you give some anecdotal evidence about crit improving damage. Yes, of course it does. I'm sure if you made some effort, you could probably provide some anecdotal evidence for a couple hundred points of any secondary stat making a notable difference.

Nail what down? that SS is the best secondary stat for smn? well good luck with that!!

That's the whole point of the work being done! Nobody knows for sure, and anecdotal evidence is simply not good enough for a lot of people. It's not a matter of luck, it's simply a matter of gathering data, analyzing the numbers and coming up with provable weights, followed by a realistic sim. It will all happen eventually, as it always has.

Nobody at this point, except apparently you, is convinced of anything. People are remaining open minded, because nobody has proof one way or another. I certainly don't know if spell speed is better than crit or not, but I can't dismiss the possibility until the work has been done to prove it out one way or another. You're just advocating for a single point of view because anecdotally you find it unlikely that anything else would be realistic.

[Fainto]

... although a funny thought would be a smn asking for arrow which is an attack speed buff from astro over litany which is a 15% crit rate how's that even, I don't know I guess it's just me? See blm would die to get arrow and blm would benefit from arrow way more than smn which already tells you something...

Spell Speed increases the damage done by DoT spells. Fey Wind and the Arrow card DO NOT increase Spell Speed (and therefore SMN's dot damage) but rather Attack Speed. Attack Speed is a new terminology introduced in Heavensward and it means that cast times are reduced, the GCD is reduced and auto attack frequency is increased. Fey Wind and Arrow are not good buffs for SMN but that says nothing about the viability of Spell Speed as a secondary stat nor its weighting relative to the other stats.

[Judge_Xero]

Looking at the scaling of Crit (which is amazing) I'm fairly convinced that Crit will be best (for all DPS classes).

I haven't seen any thorough DET VS SPD Dot testing, but the little bit I did showed results of
~52 SPD = 1% increase
~72 DET = 1% increase

So from a glance they just look so close when you consider the oGCD skills and the arsenal of SMN Dots.

So glad for people collecting data and creating the Simulator, because I think it would just be too hard to optimize otherwise.

[Minorinz]

So you give some anecdotal evidence about crit improving

It's common sense in some way, you don't need people to tell you that the sky is blue when you see that it is blue. You saying that you need people to convince you with evidence instead of thinking about it yourself with your own experience as a base assumption is not better than following the pack with your eyes closed. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking Crit > SS otherwise I'm at complete awe with the current smn community s:

Spell Speed increases the damage done by DoT spells.

I was setting a comparison of how good spellspeed is for blm other than it being a better multiplier/secondary stat base. The example of "chaining spells" question being clarified with arrow since it obviously reduces the recast of a gcd. IF we are purely considering the damage increase on a dot vs the damage increase on all out going damage on smn then it's det vs ss otherwise if ss is better than crit, then, congratulations, the game just broke!

[T0rin]

It's common sense in some way, you don't need people to tell you that the sky is blue when you see that it is blue. You saying that you need people to convince you with evidence instead of thinking about it yourself with your own experience as a base assumption is not better than following the pack with your eyes closed. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one thinking Crit > SS otherwise I'm at complete awe with the current smn community s:

Did you just try to explain why it is more accurate to just 'go with your gut' rather than do analytical analysis of something? I'm sure a lot of people still think that Crit > SS, because that's how it was for a long time. Which really doesn't mean much of anything, since you know, stuff changes.

Thinking for myself and waiting on a proper analysis to be done are in no way related. If I want to know what is actually better, the only way to accomplish that is to wait until the analysis is done, or do it myself. Doing some parses and changing some gear is probably the least accurate way to come to an actual understanding of what is going on behind the scenes.

[Minorinz]

Did you just try to explain why it is more accurate to just 'go with your gut' rather than do analytical analysis..

I'm basing what i'm saying righ tnow off my parses and others' parses that were posted here. I've compared the damage output to understand that crit is actually really good. I haven't went too far with my calculations and simply accepted that crit is that good. As for det vs ss, from how smn works, yes, it's my gut feeling. I don't think the difference is huge to be making assumptions that ss is starting to get on crit's level to begin with. The damage formula will help to calculate the best gear set, from how I see it but it won't be to whether stack more det or ss because whatever comes with crit and the accuracy cap is welcomed.

[Dervy]

If I never tested stuff out and never identified how badly DET has been butchered as it scales differently in level 60, we'd still be on the DET > CRT > SS bandwagon as. This is clearly not the case.

Have you ever seen parses with people saying i could've done better with a higher crit rate even if it's by 1-2%? I have. I have seen the difference of dps output with crit in 3.0 because i've pased so many times that I don't need a formula to tell me that.

Again, anecdotal. We also said this exact phrase in 2.0, but oh golly gee, DET was still far more superior. That's like me saying "if I had more WD I'd do more damage". "if i had more DET I'd do more damage".

have proof with my parses I can show them here all day every day and average them out.
!

So why haven't you? I see you at the Dummys all the time. You've provided no factual evidence for your arguments.

About GCDs, bio and ruin 2 are instant on gcds with 0 cast time,

Ruin II is instant, but you're still locked by your GCD, which is a recast of 2.5, which is affected by SS, no?

That's like saying, just because all of my abilities on my Dragoon happen instantly with no cast time, SS is irrelevant. No, that isn't how SS works.

although a funny thought would be a smn asking for arrow which is an attack speed buff from astro over litany which is a 15% crit rate how's that even, I don't know I guess it's just me? See blm would die to get arrow and blm would benefit from arrow way more than smn which already tells you something.

Because SS has exponential growth on your DPS. This is a FACT. It's exponential for every Job. But, Black Mages benefit the most from it, not because of their cast time, but they have infinite resources and can stack Skillspeed with 0 downside. Doesn't this sound a bit like a Summoner? If I stacked SS on Dragoon, damn right it'll be better than Crit once I reach a certain point.

Like i said i can show you my parses with the crit rate difference for you to see with your own eyes.

Please do and average them out and try convince us rather than just saying "I saw with my own eyes it must be true!!!!!!!!!!"

Nail what down? that SS is the best secondary stat for smn? well good luck with that!!

Prove it isn't.