Still none of the needed changes?

[La_Bluegirl]

While I did forget DE incase you didn't have a warrior (almost never?) I edited my original post to say "arguably" so we can stop focusing on ninja vs dragoon, but to show they are pretty much the total package.

[Aiselia]

They specifically complained botd is still on a timer.

They specifically complained that it was on a timer that constantly fails due to mechanics beyond their control.

Refreshing the cooldown itself lowers it

Refreshing the timer reduces the max, it doesn't reduce the time remaining. Otherwise that wouldn't be refreshing the timer.

It's still free oGCD damage.

And they're complaining that it has a 10 sec cooldown but would not only be impossible to use every 10 sec, but would leave you as 2.0 DRG for like 40 sec every minute if you tried, and makes the failing timer on BOTD due to mechanics even worse.

It's also not free because it costs BOTD time.

Nope, but if you're gonna say battle lit + disembowel isn't already extremely strong raid utility then you're being silly.

I'm going to say that a 15% crit chance buff for 20 sec every 3 minutes that only affects people who are in range at the time is nowhere near as powerful as a 10% to all damage debuff for 10 sec every minute.

And I mean, if you're going to include Disembowel even though it isn't "raid utility" because it doesn't affect the entire raid, that at best will affect the DRG and a BRD/MCH. Dancing Edge would affect all tanks as well as the Ninja. At bare minimum, DE affects 1 (or 2) tanks plus the ninja, 3 people. Unless you're stacking BRD/MCH for some reason, Disembowel is going to affect the DRG and a BRD/MCH if you have it, two people.

What about Fire IV, in that case?

What about it?

[Pluvia]

They specifically complained that it was on a timer that constantly fails due to mechanics beyond their control.


Refreshing the timer reduces the max, it doesn't reduce the time remaining. Otherwise that wouldn't be refreshing the timer.


And they're complaining that it has a 10 sec cooldown but would not only be impossible to use every 10 sec, but would leave you as 2.0 DRG for like 40 sec every minute if you tried, and makes the failing timer on BOTD due to mechanics even worse.

It's also not free because it costs BOTD time.


I'm going to say that a 15% crit chance buff for 20 sec every 3 minutes that only affects people who are in range at the time is nowhere near as powerful as a 10% to all damage debuff for 10 sec every minute.

And I mean, if you're going to include Disembowel even though it isn't "raid utility" because it doesn't affect the entire raid, that at best will affect the DRG and a BRD/MCH. Dancing Edge would affect all tanks as well as the Ninja. At bare minimum, DE affects 1 (or 2) tanks plus the ninja, 3 people. Unless you're stacking BRD/MCH for some reason, Disembowel is going to affect the DRG and a BRD/MCH if you have it, two people.



What about it?

Disembowl affects Raid dps its a raid utility you can't argue about it
I've said this many times if utlity added to ST wise before patch obviously i have no idea where monks are after patch
Was Drg>Nin>Mnk you can't argue that. Stop trying to downplay dragoons. They're have more of a concrete spot in a raid then Ninja

[Leonus]

Was Drg>Nin>Mnk you can't argue that. Stop trying to downplay dragoons. They're have more of a concrete spot in a raid then Ninja

This is true, but only because of the piercing debuff, and brds/mch being pretty much mandatory themselves.

I'm not taking any real sides here but, when I apply disembowel, in my mind I'm doing it for me, just like mnk with DK or when I'm on nin with no war.

It just so happens that brd/mch are piercing too.... lol. Plus, they themselves are mandatory to high end raiding.

Edit: a lot of this could have been avoided if mch was blunt damage instead.

[Pluvia]

This is true, but only because of the piercing debuff, and brds/mch being pretty much mandatory themselves.

I'm not taking any real sides here but, when I apply disembowel, in my mind I'm doing it for me, just like mnk with DK or when I'm on nin with no war.

It just so happens that brd/mch are piercing too.... lol. Plus, they themselves are mandatory to high end raiding.

No doubt but to say that Drg's utility sucks is just stupid and its not like disembowl is a small dps increase for the bard or machinist. In all honesty they need to redo the utility of some of the melee to make it better.

[Aiselia]

Disembowl affects Raid dps

It affects the Dragoon's DPS and at most one Bard or MCH, unless you're stacking BRD/MCH for some reason.

That's not raid DPS. That's a couple peoples' DPS. Regardless, NIN get DE, which affects the tanks that you'll always have plus the NIN. 3 people vs 2. Clearly DE is superior.

Stop trying to downplay dragoons.

I'm not. I'm arguing whether their raid utility is better than NIN. It isn't. They get one AOE crit chance buff that may not make a difference if you either don't crit or would have crit regardless of the buff which may not even affect the entire raid if anyone's out of earshot, and a generic "increases X damage type" debuff that all melee DPS get.

They're have more of a concrete spot in a raid then Ninja

And it's not because of how amazing Battle Litany is.

[Pluvia]

It affects the Dragoon's DPS and at most one Bard or MCH, unless you're stacking BRD/MCH for some reason.

That's not raid DPS. That's a couple peoples' DPS. Regardless, NIN get DE, which affects the tanks that you'll always have plus the NIN. 3 people vs 2. Clearly DE is superior.


I'm not. I'm arguing whether their raid utility is better than NIN. It isn't. They get one AOE crit chance buff that may not make a difference if you either don't crit or would have crit regardless of the buff which may not even affect the entire raid if anyone's out of earshot, and a generic "increases X damage type" debuff that all melee DPS get.



And it's not because of how amazing Battle Litany is.

We can fight this out disembowl is a raid utility it increases the overall raid dps as well as yours it is without a doubt a raid utilty thats like saying on opressor Dancing edge isn't a utility cause it only affects the ninja and a tank during part of the fight
No Drg's utility isn't stronger the nin's utility but the utility along with the high ST ends up making Drg the strongest choice for a melee selection.

[La_Bluegirl]

I'm not. I'm arguing just to argue.

While I did forget DE incase you didn't have a warrior (almost never?) I edited my original post to say "arguably" so we can stop focusing on ninja vs dragoon, but to show they are pretty much the total package.

You can stop your holy crusade now.

[Aiselia]

No Drg's utility isn't stronger the nin's utility

Thank you for agreeing with me. That was my point.

but the utility along with the high ST ends up making Drg the strongest choice for a melee selection.

Okay. I never argued that.

You can stop your holy crusade now.

I don't think I needed your permission to stop. However, there's clearly no point in continuing now because the other person in the argument agreed with me.

[Pluvia]

Thank you for agreeing with me. That was my point.



Okay. I never argued that.



I don't think I needed your permission to stop. However, there's clearly no point in continuing now because the other person in the argument agreed with me.

Except you skipped the main point Disembowl is a raid utility.