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  1. #251
    Player
    LunaHoshino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    785
    Character
    Luna Hoshino
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashkendor View Post
    One undergeared DPS hasn't been a problem in Titan for ages though, so that wasn't just him.

    Hell, I've finished it with all four DPS off the platform even before Heavensward.
    At least half the party was fresh 50s who were doing it for their relic weapon. If people had been better geared, then no, it wouldn't have been an issue, but in that situation, one underperforming DPS caused a real problem.
    (1)

  2. #252
    Player
    Mykll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    651
    Character
    Mykll Valiant
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 93
    I've seen these things happen frequently, whether I started in the original group, or I came in later as a replacement.

    Someone wants a kick immediately when they get a dungeon they do not like. As soon as they enter. And, sometimes, when I use the opening dungeon cutscene as a chance to get a quick drink refill or something, cutscene will end, and someone has already left.

    Someone wants a kick when everyone is the minimum level to enter the dungeon. Thus, maybe gear is not too good yet and will take longer.

    Someone wants a kick because too many new people.

    Someone wants a kick as soon as they see the party makeup. Pre-50 dungeon, PLD, 2 melees, AST healer? Not a lot of AOE damage there, must immediately leave, run will take longer.

    Someone wants a kick if there is that first accidental bad pull. Where hey they at least try to stick it out. Most famous, first room in AV. First bad pull, train wreck happens, immediately they want to leave.

    I see these various reasons happen fairly frequently. Again, as either someone in the original group, or when I come in as a replacement, I am always curious (Especially in like AV, only 1 thing, or nothing, is dead in the first room) so I ask what happened. All of this before we really know if the run will take long, or if we may run out of time, or any other various "different play style" reasons.

    It is these various immediate wanting of a kick that I think is the main issue. If a run is taking long, or I join and there is less than 20 minutes left (and again I ask what happened) I can't remember someone ever wanting a kick in a 90 minute dungeon, with 20-30 minutes left to go. It usually happens at the very beginning, or by the first-second boss range, maybe 30 minutes into it. Why did I join an in progress so late? It is always from a DC. Sure someone that never says a word we don't know why they DC, but I can't remember someone ever saying they wanted a kick, didn't get it, then magically DC'd.
    (8)
    Last edited by Mykll; 08-20-2015 at 04:47 AM. Reason: 1,000 character limit still sucks.

  3. #253
    Player
    IveraIvalice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    595
    Character
    Ivera Ivalice
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    A week ago I had logged on quick to do one dungeon before I had to log off. As I got in there (tank) I pulled the first group and couldn't keep hate for the life of me. I realized what was happening, my gear was completely broken and I could only repair the accessories (gsm50) but none of the armor or weapon. So I said sorry to all of them, explained why I couldn't keep hate and asked to be kicked. They kicked me and I was able to repair and do another dungeon before I had to log off for the night. I believe it was a DR ex and I didn't have penalty because of it.

    Whether people here would agree with this and me asking to be kicked, I don't care. I'm glad the party I was in understood The situation and I didn't have to lose a DR for the day because of the penalty
    (1)

  4. #254
    Player
    Thunda_Cat_SMASH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    2,105
    Character
    Sylvana Tenebri
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 79
    Honestly, and even though I'll admit to asking for the rare vote kick, most of the times I'm fine with just powering on. It tales something really extreme to make me even want to be kicked. (Granted, if I ask and people decline in a way that's not aggressive, I'll usually go out of my way to try and find a way to make it work. You know if people aren't immediately hostile.
    (0)

  5. #255
    Player
    LineageRazor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    3,822
    Character
    Lineage Razor
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by IveraIvalice View Post
    A week ago I had logged on quick to do one dungeon before I had to log off. As I got in there (tank) I pulled the first group and couldn't keep hate for the life of me. I realized what was happening, my gear was completely broken and I could only repair the accessories (gsm50) but none of the armor or weapon. So I said sorry to all of them, explained why I couldn't keep hate and asked to be kicked. They kicked me and I was able to repair and do another dungeon before I had to log off for the night. I believe it was a DR ex and I didn't have penalty because of it.

    Whether people here would agree with this and me asking to be kicked, I don't care. I'm glad the party I was in understood The situation and I didn't have to lose a DR for the day because of the penalty
    It was very nice of them to do this, but depending on the paucity of tanks on your data center your mistake may have cost them the ability to do the run at all. It's not at all unusual for a run-in-progress to need to wait a half hour or more before a replacement tank shows up. You got your duty roulette for the night done, but there's no guarantee that the three you left behind did. Some of those DPS may have queued up with the knowledge that they MIGHT get an instance before they have to log for the evening - only for the tank to bugger off and leave them high and dry for the sake of their own convenience.

    Of course, in your case, with your broken gear doing the run WITH you might have been as bad as abandoning the run entirely - but by receiving this kick, the only lesson you take away is, "I'm a tank, it doesn't matter if I forget to repair my gear. I can ask for kick, and get right back into action, no skin off my nose."

    Lose that skin. Lose it again and again, and eventually you'll learn to be more careful with gear repairs. Take responsibility for your own mistakes, and make an effort to understand the burden it puts on others when you fail to do so. You're not eliminating your misfortune - you're tripling it, and laying it at the feet of the three folks unlucky enough to party with you.
    (10)

  6. #256
    Player
    Purrfectstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    668
    Character
    Purrfect Storm
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by LineageRazor View Post
    Signing up on duty finder is a contract. When you run a dungeon using duty finder, you are agreeing to help a party complete an instance in exchange for a reward.
    This may be true to some extent (I think the word "contract" is a bit strong), but I don't think that one's individual desires need be tossed out the window. You agree to help the party but I think you are allowed to have reasonable expectations of mutuality: that other players will be respectful, appropriately geared, and decent contributors to the party's success.

    Quote Originally Posted by LineageRazor View Post
    If they aren't that bad, then tough it out, get the damn thing over with.
    In this case, I think context is everything - we're playing a game, which is meant to be fun.

    Yes, vote kicking someone circumvents the penalty timer, but people only ever leave/worry about the penalty timer because they're not having fun (or could be having more fun doing something else). It seems odd to take the stance that people should prevent someone who's not having fun from going to have fun with other people. It's even stranger when you consider that that player can just force DC or, even worse, troll the party in unprovable ways (like pretending to be bad, messing up mechanics, etc.) The vote dismiss seems better for not just the player who wants to go but for everyone (including other parties the player may help in that 30 min window you're trying to keep them from playing).

    Penalty timers should never have been a thing. There are other ways of preventing people from fishing for in-progress duties or trying to cherry-pick dungeons. Players should never play a game when it's an unfun chore. Forcing players to play together when they don't want to will just increase the misery of the community. Also, individual players who are being mistreated by a group should have a better out than the prospect of a 30 min lockout from playing. I don't think it's fair to assume that every individual that wants to quit a team is in the wrong.
    (2)

  7. #257
    Player
    Purrfectstorm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    668
    Character
    Purrfect Storm
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Syrehn View Post
    Efficient time management would be planning for a full dungeon run before you even queue up. If the group is truly that bad there is always vote abandon.
    Bad groups always decline vote abandons. If it's the group that's bad, the voting player is outnumbered. Then the group usually starts fighting and ranting about "elitists" who have high DF expectations.

    While I agree that one should not have super high expectations of DF, there are some groups that are FAR below average even for DF groups. For example, I recently did a DF Mog HM where the DPS would not stop pushing the king and causing wipes. We wiped about 5 times before I left. I would be surprised if anyone really thinks that is unreasonable; we're not even talking about bad players at that point, but ones who don't listen/won't follow simple instructions (yes it was explained to them beforehand).

    Quote Originally Posted by LunaHoshino View Post
    What I don't get is...

    If "differing playstyles" is a valid reason to kick someone from a group, why then is someone who voluntarily chooses to remove themselves from a group due to differing playstyles penalized for doing so? If someone realizes that they aren't meshing with a party (for example, three people want a speed run and one person doesn't), it's far better that they take the mature route of simply excusing themselves from the situation and trying to find a group that matches what they're looking for than it is for them to stay and try to sabotage the run/get themselves kicked or conveniently "DC." And I don't think they should be punished for doing so because they didn't do anything wrong; they simply happened to be matched with a group who had a different playstyle.

    I'm willing to bet there'd be a lot less need for votekick and a lot less bad behavior in general if people were allowed to leave situations in which they were unhappy without being punished for it.
    I 100% agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syrehn View Post
    Just looking at someone's gear isn't always true indicator of how well they will perform
    True, but a person's skill level is constrained by gear level; there are attacks you won't survive and DPS checks you won't pass, no matter how good you are, if you don't have appropriate gear. Furthermore, even a successful run can end up being miserable if things are dying 2-3x slower. All players should keep in mind the team-oriented nature of an MMO and gear appropriately out of respect for their team members.
    (3)
    Last edited by Purrfectstorm; 08-20-2015 at 06:06 AM.

  8. #258
    Player
    Twilite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    1,478
    Character
    Miranda Madison
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 80
    Totally bottomed out morale = vote dismiss. There's only so much masochism a person can endure.
    (0)

  9. #259
    Player Bhuni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    198
    Character
    Hugo Fact
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Syrehn View Post
    Just looking at someone's gear isn't always true indicator of how well they will perform and, imo, doesn't warrant asking to be kicked before a pull has even been made. I've seen undergeared pugs perform amazingly well.

    Also keep in mind that what might be undergeared by your standards might not actually be undergeared for the level/difficulty of the duty even if they (pugs) don't dps as well as you'd like.
    So you're telling me if I get a MNK in Titan HM with an ilevel 37 weapon for example everyone's just supposed to suck it up and be denied a kick if asked or take a 30 minutes lockout, because you've 'seen' some pugs perform amazingly well undergeared? That doesn't sound right.
    I'll say those words again though "pugs perform amazingly well undergeared"
    (2)

  10. #260
    Player
    RiceisNice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    3,514
    Character
    Flo Fyloord
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Bhuni View Post
    So you're telling me if I get a MNK in Titan HM with an ilevel 37 weapon for example everyone's just supposed to suck it up and be denied a kick if asked or take a 30 minutes lockout, because you've 'seen' some pugs perform amazingly well undergeared? That doesn't sound right.
    I'll say those words again though "pugs perform amazingly well undergeared"
    If you're wiping due to dps checks in titan HM at this point of the game (espif it's your roulette), you have more problems at present than just the monk.

    While I agree that one should not have super high expectations of DF, there are some groups that are FAR below average even for DF groups. For example, I recently did a DF Mog HM where the DPS would not stop pushing the king and causing wipes. We wiped about 5 times before I left. I would be surprised if anyone really thinks that is unreasonable; we're not even talking about bad players at that point, but ones who don't listen/won't follow simple instructions (yes it was explained to them beforehand).
    That's where vote abandon kicks in. If the dps were a group of 4 who were purposely making it impossible to progress and they even admit to it, it's harassment and reportable. If they werent premade, you could just vote kick one of them since it's well within the line of "kicking for playstyle difference".


    Penalty timers should never have been a thing. There are other ways of preventing people from fishing for in-progress duties or trying to cherry-pick dungeons. Players should never play a game when it's an unfun chore. Forcing players to play together when they don't want to will just increase the misery of the community. Also, individual players who are being mistreated by a group should have a better out than the prospect of a 30 min lockout from playing. I don't think it's fair to assume that every individual that wants to quit a team is in the wrong.
    Get rid of one, and flood gates open for another. If we had no penalties, people would just keep on fishing and fishin for whatever dungeon they want through roulette. No leafers would ever get tam-tara done if people could bail out immediately without a penalty.

    And again, it's not forcing you to stay in the party. Why do people feel so inclined that they're forced to stay, when they can straight up leave with a 30 minute timer?

    A player that's being mistreated by a group/pre-made is unavoidable, but if they feel the need to have to harass the outlier or otherwise halt progression for malicious intent (such as trolling), it's reportable, especially if it's made clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by LunaHoshino View Post

    I'm willing to bet there'd be a lot less need for votekick and a lot less bad behavior in general if people were allowed to leave situations in which they were unhappy without being punished for it.
    And now we're left with a problem of getting certain duties completed for leafers or people who legitmately need it. Ones like Chysyallis, SoF and the lowbie trio.
    (3)
    Last edited by RiceisNice; 08-20-2015 at 06:22 AM.

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