PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Assuming PLD can even dance like a WAR, PLD is only ~8% DPS behind WAR. PLD isn't the only clunky stance dancer and DRK pays more MP with Grit alone than PLD going to Sword Oath and back to Shield Oath. Usually by the time you want to go back to Shield Oath, it's almost full. MP is not even a vital resource for PLD and is very easy to refill. I won't argue why PLD stances should remain the same way and not be similar to WAR's stances.

So, it is fair to calculate the bonus lost from Sword Oath and add it to the malus from Shield Oath, but not the bonus from Deliverance and loss of 200 potency per Inner Beast that WAR loses? Your logic is astounding.

You want to throw some percentages and potencies at random? I can do that too! So let's do it!

DoTs You have the second highest potency skill in the game: Goring Blade at 540. That's higher than *gasp* Fell Cleave! Fracture is shit in comparison at 300 potency and 80 TP and no wrath/abandon generated.

Combo Finishers You have Royal Authority at 340. That's 60 potency higher than Delirium (DRK's strongest non-DA finisher). That's also 80~120 potency higher than any of the WAR combo finishers. It is actually so strong that the only DPS with a stronger finisher is DRG!

Off GCDs You have 2 VERY potent oGCDs on short CDs in SW (300) and CoS (250).

WAR has Maim for a reason: It has generally lower average potency on all its combos than PLD and DRK and WAR has no oGCDs.

More to the point:

PLD is no effing where near AST. AST is pure garbage. AST is almost as bad as 2.0 WAR.

PLD is no where near pre-2.45 DRG. DRG wasn't as garbage as you make it sound. Content has been cleared with DRG at a relevant time. People didn't need to "outgear" T13 to beat it with a DRG. The problem back then was MNK's INT Down was too strong to ignore. DRG was second highest single target DPS and did at least twice or triple the DPS of a monk in AoE. DRG was fine in SCoB and DRG only got into a bad spot when NIN came out. NIN did higher DPS than DRG and increased raid DPS with TA and Goad so it pushed DRG out of raid comps. DRG was never in a state similar to AST today. Actually for the entirety of 2.0 and most of 2.1, DRG had a VERY solid raid spot when DRG/BRD/BRD/BLM was a thing. Bringing DPS balance when it's been dancing so much with far more (7) classes to fill twice as many spots as tanks is totally irrelevant.

Bringing up DPS imbalance is irrelevant since tanks are FAR MORE BALANCED than DPS. Also get it through your thick skull that Lucrezia dropped a DPS class for another as well.

Again, you are not Lucrezia or even anywhere near world 200th. You play on a whole different level. I'll quote myself:

Let's face it, there is no effing way you'll play half as good as Lucrezia. Reasons you shouldn't compare yourself to them:

1- You do not spend 18 hours a day banging your head on the same boss and throwing potions and waiting on CDs in every pull.
2- By the time you do any of the content they did, you have at least 2 or 3 more pieces of 10 ilvs higher.
3- You do not have the technical knowledge that Bleeding Edge groups work with. The very fact that you are crying here over PLD's DPS is proof enough.

Any uneducated misinformation you get from their decisions do not affect your average raid balance in ANY way, form or shape. Stop bringing them up. Lucrezia dropped a tank for another tank to squeeze DPS, so what? They dropped AN ACTUAL DPS CLASS for another. It's called "Bringing the right tools for the job." It's strategy and class synergy, not imbalance.

Let's not forget that Lucrezia tried with a PLD MT first before they finally decided to go DRK. And the main reason for DRK over PLD is INT Down since they dropped the monk. Yes, PLD is THAT good.

Ultimately it feels weird that you have such a kneejerk reaction to PLD having slightly lower DPS than WAR when its main role isn't even to DPS.

Again, I'll quote myself:

If you do not let your healers do more DPS as a PLD over a WAR or DRK, getgud. (you or the healers or both)
If you are more than 150 DPS behind a WAR MT as MT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you are more than 100 DPS behind a WAR OT as OT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you feel unsafe, play WAR, if you still feel unsafe, getgud.

If you do not want to do the above, of if you are unhappy with how PLD plays still or think it's too damned under-powered, don't effing play it. There is a reason there are different classes. We have 3 tanks now.

No body is saying tank DPS is irrelevant. Difference between the tank classes DPS however, is irrelevant!

Honestly I can't take you seriously if you argue these points any more.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Just wanted to say. . .WE'VE REACHED 300 REPLIES!

[Lone-wolfe-02]

Just wanted to say. . .WE'VE REACHED 300 REPLIES!

Yet they still don't get the memo that giving plds more dps would break it's balance.

[Phoebus]

Just wanted to say. . .WE'VE REACHED 300 REPLIES!

Yeah I'm not reading all these doctorate thesis papers on the subject.

PLD is mostly fine, but could use some changes to make it more fun to play.

Be these changes help increase dps slightly, help take some load off of healers so that can dps more, or give a debuff to help dps do more damage.

Just something to make it more fun.

[NFaelivrin]

Phoenicia are you seriously counting the potencies of combo moves based solely on their finishers? lmao. Why not actually average the potencies of the entire weaponskill combo? Oh wait, its because doing it that way doesn't support your claims of PLD DPS OP. Delirium 60 potency behind Royal authority? Please,
Delirium is (150 + 250 + 280)/3 = 226.6... average potency/gcd
Royal Authority is (150 + 200 + 340)/3 = 230... average potency/gcd

And the Goring Blade you insist is so incredibly strong? Assuming you get lucky and the last tick doesn't clip
Goring Blade is (150 + 230 + 540)/3 = 306.6... average potency/gcd
To compare Dark Arts Soul Eater is (150 + 250 + 400)/3 = 266.6... weaker for certain, but usable more often and fully benefits from Slashing debuff (which DoT ticks do not benefit from), nevermind that DRK has a 500 potency DoT with no required wind-up and a 60 tp cost in Scourge.

Counting the potency of WAR combos as if it was Oh So Low is particularly funny since unless you don't know your rotation at all they will all benefit from Maim's +20% damage bonus, which leaves Butcher's Block alone at a "potency" of 336 -nearly that of Royal Authority-.

Yet they still don't get the memo that giving plds more dps would break it's balance.

The glorious balance where its only brought to one out of four endgame raids, lol.

[Brannigan]

Please give drg the int debuff so I dont have to play dark knight thanks

Also reprisal op

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

This one totally flew over your head, didn't it? lol

You want to throw some percentages and potencies at random? I can do that too! So let's do it!

You really are trying hard to nitpick instead of proving me wrong. Nothing I said in my post was wrong. I did say Maim increases WAR's potency to be on level with PLD and DRK, didn't I? Or did that also fly over your head as well the second you found a point you could nitpick?

You threw out that PLD loses Sword Oath bonus whine in Shield Oath (no sh*t, Sherlock?) but WAR only has the Defiance penalty to deal with. Which is "throwing random numbers out of context". hence, I told you I could do the same.

Also your average potency argument does nothing but support my points. PLD average potency isn't far behind the other tanks (it's actually ahead with some of its combos).

Now "debunk" my post by actual solid facts or let this thread die.

[Akei]

Been following this thread for a few days and it mostly an interesting read, as long as you ignore the attacks on posters. People will always have different opinions, try to be civil to each other.

I have all 3 tanks at 60 and 186-189 ilevel.

Personal pref, I favor the PLD or DRK. I just dont care for the WAR playstyle. Not saying its crap, I am well aware of its abilitys etc, its just not *for me*. The DRK is fun and I enjoy it but I find myself more and more on the PLD since I've played it the most and enjoy it the most. My only *issue* with PLD is their Sub-par AoE dmg. Not a crippling drawback for a tank but I do notice that dungeon runs are abit faster on the DRK since I can throw out alot more AoE DPS.

I notice AoE threat issues on PLD only in ALEX, if my co-tank is a WAR / DRK and wants to spam overpower / Abyssal Drain ... I wont bother to fight them for aggro as a PLD, waste of my time, I'll just start to DPS and be happy. Of course this is a non-issue in dungeons since there is no co tank and PLD threat is more than sufficient there. So the threat issues? Meh. Not really a concern. A pre-formed raid will coordinate .. a PUG just let them have it if they can take the hits /shrug. As long as you can out-threat the DPS its fine, if that becomes and issue I'm sure it will be addressed.

Bottom line for me, and I dont see it as being *balance breaking at all* would be to add a little more AOE DPS to the PLD in some form. Would not effect raids really (A2 being the only exception - and WAR / DRK are not brought to that just b/c of their AOE dmg ability) but it would bring them on par with the other tank classes in AoE for dungeon runs, which lets be honest, is what a majority of the player base does.

[Brian_]

https://youtu.be/PPdPbmwkMh0?t=37m53s

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...ay-WAR./page24

Just to re-iterate an earlier point -- the truth is apparent to everyone but a select few obviously biased people blatantly trying to protect their class of choice. Most of the people saying PLD is okay don't even play PLD. It's not just Elysium and Lucrezia that prefer DRKs now. A lot of groups are dropping PLDs or recruiting DRK / WAR instead.

The extra DPS doesn't just help top progression groups. It helps any group that struggles meeting DPS checks which is A LOT of groups.

[Wizhard]

ITT: Not paladins telling paladins that they are fine.