PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[Phoenicia]

Huge wall of text of redundant junk.

A few points, I'm not gonna go in circles and re-iterate the same junk over and over.

Please tell me where in my posts I said AST doesn't need buffs? I said in so many posts that tank balance is no where near healers' and DPS.

You have to be blind or ignorant to not see how "safe" PLD is compared to WAR.

Don't worry, PLD and DRK will get their slashing debuff when BRD and MCH get their piercing and BLM and SMN get their Foe's.

The utility difference is already present to differentiate between the tanks. And PLD brings by far the most utility of the three in at least 5 abilities. *In b4 some retard mentions Storm Path.*

PLD can afford to MT in Sword Oath, it's not news. I did that in T9 Savage at ilv110 for the entire first phase and golems. And T13 at ilv130 until adds. WARs used to drop Defiance a lot as MT in fights like T10, 11 and 12. Now, WAR tanks in Deliverance 80% of the time and DRK drops Grit. Your point? Oh, you want PLD to do the same DPS as Deliverance WAR and non-Grit DRK in Shield Oath? Hmm...

Btw, you are NOT Lucrezia nor Elysium, and unless you were with them as a PLD and you got dropped for a DRK, you have no right to complain here. I have explained many times why 70~100 DPS difference is not as game breaking for average raid groups as it is for bleeding-edge world/server first competition.

If doing 70 DPS less than WAR is what you define as "CRAPPY DAMAGE", then there is not much I can say to you.

If you are unhappy with PLD, don't effing play it, stick to WAR. There is a reason why the game has different classes. If you can't stomach having 70 DPS less than a WAR, then don't play it.

[Noira]

So long as PLD continues to be the safer tank then no they shouldn't have dps to match the other tanks.

PLD is honestly this games only true DEFENSIVE Tank with PARTY support abilities to boot.

Party Support ? Check
Physical Cooldowns ? Check
Magical Cooldown ? Check ? (Yes Sentienal and Rampart count as they decrease damage on both types)
Other Forms of Mitigation ? (Stoneskin AND a Shield) check.

This is why they will never do the same dps as the other tanks.

[NFaelivrin]

"PLD is the safest tank, PLD is the safest tank, PLD is the safest tank" it feels almost like a mantra to you people now. Can you please empirically demonstrate PLD being the "safest tank" in any meaningful way in current endgame content? The way you go about it would imply that PLD is so god damned sturdy that one would imagine healers get higher DPS uptime just from bringing one, and yet everything seems to point to the contrary. A lot of the people citing PLD 'safety' seem to have had a bad case of forgetting we're not in A Realm Reborn anymore, Coil is not relevant content, and the way Alexander fights are designed is not the same as coil. The fact so many of you cite the existence of the shield as reasoning PLD is So Tuff shows me you don't know anything about current endgame.

snip

You talking about "70 dps less than war" is straight out ridiculous. It seems you have started ignoring empirical facts and just started sticking to that one fulltime sword oath no rage of halone parse as the gospel of truth, as if it genuinely demonstrated PLD's massive DPS drop when going into Shield Oath. You also have repeatedly ignored the fact that class unbalance scales down from groups like Lucrezia to your average regular raid group, and that regardless of your static's skill level there are still optimal and suboptimal choices, PLD outside A2S being one of the latter.

[Phoenicia]

Same BS as the person before.

Again, if you can't see PLD's safety, you're blind or ignorant. Hallowed Ground alone is proof enough. And yes, healers will do more DPS with a PLD tank over WAR assuming the same skill level on the tank. PLD and WAR haven't changed much compared to A Realm Reborn. PLD actually got better with more mitigation, support AND EFFING DPS than it used to have in ARR. Goring Blade is literally the second strongest melee skill in the game now after Chaos Thrust. Royal Authority is only 20 potency lower than Full Thrust. I don't see your point here.

All of PLD's CDs are push-and-forget. They all last long enough and are very potent. There is no timing difficulty to them. There is no resource (Wrath or MP) that you can f*&# up. There are no pre-requisite CDs (DA) and aren't on the GCD (IB) that could get consumed by other actions. All you do is push CD before damage.

Oh, and Hallowed Ground. You can't get any safer.

The whole so many "empirical facts" I'm assumingly ignoring on PLD DPS are far less than the actual facts you are ignoring on WAR DPS. WAR will not be running around throwing triple Fell Cleaves per berserk. SPECIALLY if they have to take any form of damage in that fight. And the fact that triple FC is a DPS loss because of how many CDs you delay to align them and how long you hold on to Abandon stacks just to meet the conditions of triple FC. Storm Path is a DPS loss in every situation. Inner Beast is a DPS loss because it's not Fell Cleave. Going into Defiance for Inner Beast or Equilibrium heal is at least 10 seconds of 30% DPS loss. Pacification after Berserk not getting esuna'd is a DPS loss. But fine, let's pretend WAR doesn't lose DPS at all but PLD loses all of 700 DPS when they have to do 1 RoH instead of RA. (Yes I can exaggerate and use sarcasm too).

Let's face it, there is no effing way you'll play half as good as Lucrezia. Reasons you shouldn't compare yourself to them:

1- You do not spend 18 hours a day banging your head on the same boss and throwing potions and waiting on CDs in every pull.
2- By the time you do any of the content they did, you have at least 2 or 3 more pieces of 10 ilvs higher.
3- You do not have the technical knowledge that Bleeding Edge groups work with. The very fact that you are crying here over PLD's DPS is proof enough.

Any uneducated misinformation you get from their decisions do not affect your average raid balance in ANY way, form or shape. Stop bringing them up. Lucrezia dropped a tank for another tank to squeeze DPS, so what? They dropped AN ACTUAL DPS CLASS for another. It's called "Bringing the right tools for the job." It's strategy and class synergy, not imbalance.

Did I mention Hallowed Ground?

I'm not gonna waste more time replying to the same points over and over again.

I will be blunt (not like I haven't been so in this entire post lol) and say:

If you do not let your healers do more DPS as a PLD over a WAR or DRK, getgud. (you or the healers or both)
If you are more than 150 DPS behind a WAR MT as MT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you are more than 100 DPS behind a WAR OT as OT with the slashing debuff, getgud.
If you feel unsafe, play WAR, if you still feel unsafe, getgud.

If you do not want to do the above, of if you are unhappy with how PLD plays still or think it's too damned under-powered, don't effing play it. There is a reason there are different classes. We have 3 tanks now.

[Ketsuyame]

There is plenty of magic damage in a2 lol.

Where? The Jagd dolls are all physical. So are the GobWidows.. and the hardhelms and hardminds.. And the snipers..

Uh.. I've beaten A2 savage 3x already. I think that fight is predominantly physical. Our PLD shines there. Idk which A2 you're in. Even the explosion from the bombs (if a shitty gobwalker driver misses one) is physical damage.

[Casper]

1) Pld is more sturdy for a number of reasons. Shield alone is 5 to 10% reduced physical damage, native, without doing anything. While not of much use regarding tank busters, it does mean that pld are easier to heal outside of tank busters. In particular, when healers are focused on the party, the MT taking reduced "day to day" damage means healers are not as stressed by having to heal on two fronts at once. Another point is that they naturally get their damage reduction debuff while main tanking. They ARE going to use rage of halone. I am currently in a Pld/War group with no ninja. Having the Pld MT means we have close to 100% uptime on both path and halone debuff. That combination is the only one where you will have close to 100% uptime on 2 10% damage reduction debuffs. Reprisal from Drk is nowhere near 100% uptime, and should the War MT, then it is not realistic to maintain both path and halone up, since that means the MT not using his aggro combo while the pld use his.

2) The utility of pld cannot be understated either. You are brushing it off like it is nothing. As far as i know, almost any group went into A2S with a pld, and for good reason -- their sturdiness along with their utility are invaluable in there. Their aoe shield is extremely usefull to mitigate big aoe hits. Cover has lots of great uses; in A2S, covering a healer targeted by snipers really make some waves much easier. It is by no mean "mandatory" but it make some things soother. HG remain an amazing tool to push your group through your current struggling point to experience more of a fight. It is better than the Drk and War equivalent by miles, allowing healers to catch up when behind, providing a substantial DPS boost to the group by allowing an insane amount of dps from healers for 10 to 12 seconds, when it is not simply allowing you to bypass some hard parts purely and simply.

3) The dps difference is ridiculously low with other tanks.

It seems you have started ignoring empirical facts and just started sticking to that one fulltime sword oath no rage of halone parse as the gospel of truth, as if it genuinely demonstrated PLD's massive DPS drop when going into Shield Oath.

Well what it seems is that you are trying to compare the dps of warrior that are tank dancing as much as possible with Pld staying in shield oath all the time. It really is a case of "GIT GUD" -- i'm sorry that's all there is to it.

Here is a video of a clear of A3S using a warrior and pld. The Pld did 650 dps, the warrior 778. That it despite the Pld main tanking the whole phase 1, the whole phase 2, and one more cascade phase in phase 4 than the warrior. Despite all this time main tanking (and thus having to use shield oath for a lot of it, and having to use rage of halone both for debuffs and aggro), there is only a 128 difference in dps. It is almost certain that should they have decided to reverse the roles: 1) the warrior would most likely not have done much more than the Pld, and 2) that would have come at the cost of a serious decrease in the safety of the MT.

You can continue having your head in the sand if you want. But the facts are here for you to consider. Pld is doing a MARGINAL amount of dps lower than the other tanks. It has only been significant for world first group on a3s without weapons, a feat that Yoshida admitted himself he did not think was possible. They won literally 1 second before wiping, if even that, they had to squeeze just EVERY bit of dps in, hence the choice of a Drk instead of a Pld. For anyone else, the difference is so minim it doesn't matter -- if anything it is BETTER to attempt A3S with a pld than a drk for anyone else, because it is a physical heavy fight, and Pld provide much more safety for the group compared to a Drk.

War just work amazingly as an OT. Their kit is super synergetic, as others have said, and being in an OT position allow them to maximize it, by keeping eye up 100%, having path usable as much as they want, making awesome use of unchained. War MT / Pld OT used to be higher dps, but that's not true anymore, now that War has their DPS stance and Pld have options to do more damage as a MT.

TL;DR: all three tanks are quite balanced at the moment. Pld offers the best Physical mitigation by far, and requires less day-to-day healing, while offering significant utility advantages over the other tanks. Drk offers the most mitigation in magic heavy fights, and provide slightly more DPS than a Pld as MT. War just work much better as an OT than a MT, not that they are "bad" at MT per say, but their kit can become ackward as MT (most notably due to the pressure between eye, path, and butcher), whereas it is pure gold as OT.
So you just have War best as OT, Pld best MT on physical encounters, Drk best MT on magical encounters. All three have their place in the wheel of life, and all is good.

[Seku]

This is still a thing? Why are people still pretending that their world first? By this time any tank should be able to clear savage A1-A3 due to gear progression.

[NFaelivrin]

1)Well what it seems is that you are trying to compare the dps of warrior that are tank dancing as much as possible with Pld staying in shield oath all the time. It really is a case of "GIT GUD" -- i'm sorry that's all there is to it.

Spare me your condescension. There are real reasons why a PLD who stance dances as much as a WAR does will do less damage objectively speaking given an equal skill level, 100% of the time. Since you apparently don't seem to realize these by yourself I guess I'll have to point them out.

1) In Sword Oath, PLD's extra auto-attack damage accounts for somewhere between 10% and 13% of their DPS, depending on weapon delay.
2) PLD has no means whatsoever to ignore the damage penalty from Shield Oath.
3) PLD has the single clunkiest stance dancing system of all 3 tanks, with every stance switch interrupting combos and resulting in a lost GCD.

Assuming that Sword Oath's extra added damage is 10%-13% of PLD's DPS, and the fact that Shield Oath applies the 80% damage reduction and entirely removes the extra damage from Sword Oath, PLD's DPS goes down to somewhere around 70% of the Sword Oath base, lower than Warrior's 75% from Defiance, and not taking into account that simply going into Shield Oath for high damage phases results in lost GCDs, might interrupt combos if done at an inappropriate time, and also that unlike Warrior you have 0 means whatsoever to sidestep the major damage penalty from Shield Oath, you don't have off-GCD stance dances, you don't have Unchained, and you don't have any moves that ignore the damage penalty. Essentially, every single second you spend in Shield Oath increases the DPS gap between PLD and WAR, and thus, assuming you stance dance an equal amount, the DPS difference between PLD and WAR will be higher than comparing both of them in fulltime DPS stance.

This is still a thing? Why are people still pretending that their world first? By this time any tank should be able to clear savage A1-A3 due to gear progression.

It's still "a thing" because you people seem incapable of understanding that just because a raid can be, feasibly, once gear levels get high enough, be cleared with any composition, it doesn't change the fact that imbalances create optimal compositions which are easier to clear with because they're objectively better. You can probably clear A3S with, of all things, double AST, once gear catches up enough. Does this mean double AST is good? No. You could probably clear all of Final Coil with a DRG pre 2.45 despite the class being a broken, clunky mess of punishing positionals with the lowest DPS of all melees and astoundingly awful survivability against magic damage. That it's possible doesn't mean it's a good idea, and any static that is serious about progression will prefer to go for optimal party compositions because few people enjoy wiping a few extra dozen times on a raid because one of your members wants to be special and bring a class that has been demonstrated to be inferior at the job. You can probably bear with it if you raid casually or with friends and thus your attachment to that one goof who insists on playing AST forever is because they're your friend, but it doesn't change the fact you'd probably still clear faster and more efficiently if that person switched jobs.

Ultimately it feels weird that you all have such a kneejerk reaction to PLD requiring some buffs to bring them to a similar level to WAR in terms of usefulness, the buffs PLD requires are frankly quite minor and basically boil down to "make Shield Oath less punishing to occasionally swap to". PLD Sword Oath DPS is decent and within acceptable parameters, the major holes in PLD as a class are 1) Shield Oath sucks compared to every other tank stance in terms of damage 2) Stance dancing for PLD (and to a lesser degree DRK) is unnecessarily clunky 3) Both PLD and DRK need some means to restore their TP as either OT or MT and 4) PLD having no AoE at all is an oddity and at this point in the game makes no sense.

[Delorean]

splitting hairs about dps when it isnt even your job

i think its funny how many tanks are even focused on dps. how many of you even have competitive world/realm rankings? because that's the only place your tank DPS is even going to matter.

your tank dps is not going to matter in a static where the dps can't even perform within 90% of the best players of their class. it's not to say that you shouldn't take advantage of everything you have, but it's a whole lot of stress over a whole lot of nothing.

i'll put it this way though; what's the point of putting a bunch of stickers, $4000 rims and a flowmaster on your honda? it's nice, but it's not making your car go any faster.

it's like yeah, scaring the crap out of a guy in the parking lot with your high pitched noisy exhaust and winking at his girlfriend who is laughing hysterically is priceless, but that really doesn't have anything to do with winning the quarter mile

[NFaelivrin]

If tank DPS is so irrelevant it seems quite odd that both Warrior and Paladin got abilities that do absolutely nothing besides damage. The tank meta has been "as much survivability as you need, as much DPS as you can" for a long time now and this doesn't apply exclusively to Lucrezia and Elysium. If your static's DPS "can't even perform within 90% of the best players of their class" this makes tank DPS all the more important, not less.