o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[Ferth]

Amineri's post is one of the reasons I'd like to see more information across the board.

One of the biggest problems in FFXIV's economy is overabundance. Certain things are just way too readily available. Which is why I am not necessarily against the negation of nuggets. Making bronze nuggets you get 12 in a batch, 2 of those can be used to create 32 nails.

Basically a stack of bronze nuggets makes 15 stacks of nails. There is not one recipe that uses more than 1 "nails." This means nails are basically worthless. They aren't ideal to make for skill because you will end up with just ridiculous amounts that you can't sell and they aren't ideal to sell because they are so worthless. To add further issues to this there are 6 different types of nails.

This is a prime example of where streamlining needs to take place... But I still don't think the answer is to go from needing nails in their current form to just having recipes that used to require nails now require an ingot. There is plenty of room for adjustment in every stage of crafting nails that would streamline their use and give them greater relevance.

Let's work under the assumption that the new ingot recipe will yield one ingot. let's then have one ingot make 3-4 "Boxes of Nails." One box is the item. Any recipe that uses nails uses up the full "box."

Now instead of having one batch of ore turning into about 3 stacks of nails you have one batch of ore turning into 4 usable items. The value of nails goes up. Crafters realize they can grind on nails and keep them for further use or sell them and actually make money off of them.

[syntaxlies]

Those are the same issues that almost everyone is glad they are changing. Have you read any of the posts in this thread? Or did you read the title, figure people were against any and all changes being implemented and decided you needed to chime in that these changes are all great?

I have not heard anyone argue in favor of the wonky skill requirements on certain parts. I barely play right now because I largely don't enjoy it. The things that are actively preventing me from crafting or for ranking up a combat class are not even remotely being addressed in these changes.

These changes will not make more people suddenly craft hempen doublets even though any idiot could do it with 5 minutes of effort. Because there will still be no reason from the standpoint of gaining skill, and largely no reason from a demand perspective either because even with the new materia system no one is going to wear a rank 6 shirt for longer than a day. Hell probably not even longer than an hour, unless through some totally bizarre insight SE makes it's possible materia crazy good.

The argument is not whether they should change things or not change things. The argument is about the degree to which things should be changed.

You need to stop treating this discussion like everyone who disagrees with your sentiment of all the changes being great or perfect or good as somehow being of the standpoint that all change is then bad.

We want the crafting system to change too... We just still want the aspects we enjoy in crafting to still bear relevance.

You are rank 20 in leather so even with the roadblocks you've come across you still haven't reach the biggest road black, the totally skewed rate of progression... Remember when your GLA hit rank 32 and you went from needing 38,000 sp for the next rank to needing 45,000? That's the same thing that happens to crafters. Only you don't have a leve exploit or parties or raids to get you to your next rank quicker... You've got a shitload of junk to craft. Whether that junk is going to be toad leather straps or toad leather harnesses... you're still gonna have to craft a bloody lot of them.

And unless the rate of spiritbind is stupidly fast, or the success chance for multiple materia bindings is stupidly low you still won't have a proper market for everything you will need to make to continue to gain rank in your craft.

They can streamline the process. I think the majority of us want that. But this isn't a streamlining... this is a gutting.

well i will not argue your opinion as I said everyone is entitled to one. Mine just so happens to be the one that will be implemented in 1.19 soooo, you lose i suppose.

[Lujan]

I don't think it's "Dumbing it down", I just think they're removing a lot of the bloat.

As it was, we just had way too many items to lug around. It was more of a pain than "realism" was worth. Even with a retainer, 200 slots just wasn't enough with the diversity of the items. As the game grows, we were looking at a chaotic situation where there would simply be too much bloat as time went on. Simplifying != dumbing down.

I think the choice of wording is honestly trying to instigate a "QQ CATERING TO CASUALS" vibe. IMO, crafting was plenty difficult as it was when you compared it to how quickly you can burn through DoW and DoMs. It's balance and simplicity honestly.

I think a lot of people are honestly just bumhurt that they did DoHs while it was "hard". I honestly don't think it's getting any easier (in fact, some may argue without parts it will be harder to level unless they buff SP), it's just getting way less *annoying*.

before i start with this post above +1 crafter who are 50 stop qq i have many i made my cash and im happy with these changes are cool as hell and ur right there are a lot of crafts that will be a pain to rank up due to no part's remember people this =finished items or metrial's hahah good luck.

Ok sorry i have not read all this post so much few quick question if you all dont mind please.

1 ok so will they be converting current +2 and 3 items in to HQ ? or will they stay the same.

2 wow attachment's = win gonna be pro if u get lucky and have crab bow +2 or 3 with all 5 + att but am i correct in saying the first 1 = 100% no matter the one's after have a chance to fail and if u fail you will lose ur item ?

im all for loseing the item also think that's how it should be not given countless chances to get an item 5 sockets with ez mode.

3 has there been any word on how we have to get items to 100% before we can desynth EG have to wear it and kill , just wear it around town ?


i'm sorry for my txt talk and so forth but that's just me please forgive me :P

Sorry 1 more thing i think the hole all hq item's = hq and nq = nq is cool to totly unfair to peoplet hat i can get hq three of nq mats yet they can put all hq mats and not get a hq glad this is happeneing it will help people who are starting the game level there battle class with a craft and make ther own gear and sell it, unlike now where us high end boys buy nq mats and with some skill and right skills from many crafts get +2 and 3 from nothing.

[darkstarpoet1]

Amineri's post is one of the reasons I'd like to see more information across the board.

One of the biggest problems in FFXIV's economy is overabundance. Certain things are just way too readily available. Which is why I am not necessarily against the negation of nuggets. Making bronze nuggets you get 12 in a batch, 2 of those can be used to create 32 nails.

Basically a stack of bronze nuggets makes 15 stacks of nails. There is not one recipe that uses more than 1 "nails." This means nails are basically worthless. They aren't ideal to make for skill because you will end up with just ridiculous amounts that you can't sell and they aren't ideal to sell because they are so worthless. To add further issues to this there are 6 different types of nails.

This is a prime example of where streamlining needs to take place... But I still don't think the answer is to go from needing nails in their current form to just having recipes that used to require nails now require an ingot. There is plenty of room for adjustment in every stage of crafting nails that would streamline their use and give them greater relevance.

Let's work under the assumption that the new ingot recipe will yield one ingot. let's then have one ingot make 3-4 "Boxes of Nails." One box is the item. Any recipe that uses nails uses up the full "box."

Now instead of having one batch of ore turning into about 3 stacks of nails you have one batch of ore turning into 4 usable items. The value of nails goes up. Crafters realize they can grind on nails and keep them for further use or sell them and actually make money off of them.

this was my point from the start. there were plenty of ways to streamline without gutting the system. i have no problems with change that will increase the fun aspect of playing the game. yes, the synths that needed a part that was 20 ranks above it needed to be change and i haven't seen the first for or against the changes argue that.

the point was to fix a few flaws here and there they completely removed one full aspect of crafting instead of just fixing the issues that were had.

[Razor]

this was my point from the start. there were plenty of ways to streamline without gutting the system. i have no problems with change that will increase the fun aspect of playing the game. yes, the synths that needed a part that was 20 ranks above it needed to be change and i haven't seen the first for or against the changes argue that.

the point was to fix a few flaws here and there they completely removed one full aspect of crafting instead of just fixing the issues that were had.

The biggest flaw I see with the removal of parts and the majority of this crafting update is that its is entirely missing the root of the problem. Taking the car example I read earlier, its like having a sketchy car and the mechanic replaces the body, the seats, the dashboard, the headlights, the wheels and tires and returns it to you. Sure it may LOOK nicer, but it still has the same horrible engine and transmission that you wanted fixed to begin with.

The "horrible engine and transmission" I'm referring to is:
1. The tediousness of crafting in general, the mini-game and material development is tremendously slow. As someone said it can take upwards of 10 minutes to make ONE finished item. Considering you already had all the raw materials and didn't have to run around finding things.

2. Even removing parts, the ranks required to even make the intermediate materials is skewed ridiculously. If rank 10-20 leather working focuses on dodo leather... then dodo leather should be a lv10 synth to prepare you for rank 10-20. Not a rank 18 synth that you can't reliably succeed until you're already past the point where you need the leather to begin with.

2a. This means that even without parts, if I am a rank 10 armorer trying to make something that includes dodo leather, my leatherworking needs to be at least 15-20 in order to make those materials for an item that is likely ranked between 5 and 15. The overall skill rank requirements needs to be adjusted (And maybe it will, I hope so).

Like a lot of other people are saying, the removal of parts itself isn't necessarily a horrible thing. I've gotten over my initial heart break over losing parts. But marketing this as a fix is a flat out lie, removing parts is not going to fix a whole lot of anything. And at that point the removal of parts falls from being a solution to just putting salt in a grievous wound. Sure it will disinfect the laceration, but is it doing more damage than help?

[darkstarpoet1]

The "horrible engine and transmission" I'm referring to is:
1. The tediousness of crafting in general, the mini-game and material development is tremendously slow. As someone said it can take upwards of 10 minutes to make ONE finished item. Considering you already had all the raw materials and didn't have to run around finding things.

yes, it can take multiple minutes to make a piece of finished gear and it should. that was the point in this game that drew in alot of people, myself included. this was not a run of the mill mmo with generic crafting. this game was made more detailed in the crafting area because crafting was full class and not some tiny side project.

2. Even removing parts, the ranks required to even make the intermediate materials is skewed ridiculously. If rank 10-20 leather working focuses on dodo leather... then dodo leather should be a lv10 synth to prepare you for rank 10-20. Not a rank 18 synth that you can't reliably succeed until you're already past the point where you need the leather to begin with.

this is completely false. you can easily complete a rank 18 synth at rank 13 by just going to the guild and getting higher support.

2a. This means that even without parts, if I am a rank 10 armorer trying to make something that includes dodo leather, my leatherworking needs to be at least 15-20 in order to make those materials for an item that is likely ranked between 5 and 15. The overall skill rank requirements needs to be adjusted (And maybe it will, I hope so).

this is a point everyone has stated was an issue especially in the lower ranked synths. there is no reason for a part to use items like shoulder guards or a part 20 ranks above the completion level, but to use something more simple like a dodo strap on an armorer synth is ok. the reason it would be more acceptable is because that is a common item and is easily obtained within the wards if you do not have the other job leveled.

Like a lot of other people are saying, the removal of parts itself isn't necessarily a horrible thing. I've gotten over my initial heart break over losing parts. But marketing this as a fix is a flat out lie, removing parts is not going to fix a whole lot of anything. And at that point the removal of parts falls from being a solution to just putting salt in a grievous wound. Sure it will disinfect the laceration, but is it doing more damage than help?

this was the argument against these changes. there are plenty of issues in crafting that needed work, but to remove the majority of crafting in a blanket move when there are vastly more important issues that need attention was overkill. how much is the overall crafting experience going to be improved when the same standard bashing grind on the same boring mini game is still in place? all it did was move the grind on the boring system from one item to another and didn't touch the biggest issue that keeps people from crafting in the first place.

[TheVedis]

this is completely false. you can easily complete a rank 18 synth at rank 13 by just going to the guild and getting higher support.

This is wrong dark, its been dev confirmed that support currently DOES NOT work this way, the only thing it does is help you not easy fail synths that "require" support in their recipe

[Davorok]

ummm you don't know basic economics....just by changing which item you npc does not jump start an economy. yes, people may wind up getting 2-3 of an item instead of 1, but if people are crafting 100x as many it will not jump start anything.

1 person buying 2-3 gears instead of one = increase of 1-2 items created and sold (economy grows)

50 people = 50-100 increase in manufactured and sold goods (economic growth)

1000 people = 1000 - 2000 increase in crafted & sold gear (is that not economic growth?)

5000 people (full server) = 5000 - 10,000 increase in manufactured and sold finished gear. (15,000 - 30,000 total)

This is just for 1 gear slot so 30,000 items X 7 slots = 210,000 gears manufactured & sold.
But this is just for 1 set so to get to R50 we need 210,000 gear sets X 4 sets (higher rank gears) = 840,000 total gear sets or 5,880,000 total finished gears manufactured and sold (per full server).

If I use a (probably) low figure of $10,000 per gear X 5,880,000 gears = $58,800,000,000. That is almost 60 Billion Dollars which is being traded in the Player Based Economy rather than lost in the vapour of NPC Sales. This doesn't even take into account Gatherers (DoL), Materia Makers (DoW/DoM), NM/Raid Drops (rare materials), etc., and the increase in demand for those items.

Will you personally sell 500 Dodo Harnesses in the MW? No, you will be lucky to sell 2-3 but that is still a net increase of $20-30,000 in your pocket and more importantly, it stays in the economy.

I still stand by my original (flawed) analogy.

[darkstarpoet1]

This is wrong dark, its been dev confirmed that support currently DOES NOT work this way, the only thing it does is help you not easy fail synths that "require" support in their recipe

i can confirm with differences in game results. the fact that some items do not require support, but you will get better results by using facilities. it DOES work this way. try an item that it lets you try, but you struggle to complete without support even if it does not state "this synthesis would benefit from more advanced facilities" and your results will increase if you start using them.

i'm sure you're right though and it doesn't work, but please humor me and give it a shot and post results. i know i personally tried it on synths that i had difficulty on and always grind on items 5 levels above me. the first 2 ranks of each i grab support and go up from 60% completion to 80% or so by just grabbing support. after that i stop using support once i complete them on a high enough percentage.

50 people = 50-100 increase in manufactured and sold goods (economic growth)

i understand you part of the argument and you are correct to an extent. yes, it will increase sales in certain gear. my point is that it will not jump start an economy. it will allow it to continue moving, but will not dramatically increase it. if i make 2-3 finished gear and they sell in a week is not really any different than me making 500 finished gear and selling the same 2-3 in a week. the difference is then i have to go and npc the other 497 of them.

Will you personally sell 500 Dodo Harnesses in the MW? No, you will be lucky to sell 2-3 but that is still a net increase of $20-30,000 in your pocket and more importantly, it stays in the economy.

this is where i was talking about not jump starting. you make 500 harnesses and, yes, you will sell 2-3 but will lose gil off the other 497. at least by making parts you lost gil, but it was minor due to the fact off parts you could put a stack(99) of each up which comes out to 990 items on each of your retainers or 2970 items on your 3 retainers total or the 30 of the finished gear you have.

you would make that same 30k gil whether it was through the parts sales now or through gear sales later so the sales are still in the market. that was all i was saying. no matter if you are selling materials, parts, or finished items if you sell 30k it stays in the market.

[Ferth]

That looks an awful lot like Voodoo Economics, Davorok. And you really don't take into account the devaluation items will experience in a supply heavy economy. You are working with alot of numbers that you are really just pulling out of your ass.