Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Seku]

Yes, this is a problem. They're already aware of the issue, hopefully they'll consider fixing it.



I think DRK MT + WAR OT is going to be the best for magic fights since the DRK's anti-magic abilities are strong and you get the WAR's SP/SE and great DPS. So I'm anticipating the best raid setup may be to have your PLD level a DRK and swap classes based on the fight.

I mean, I don't think this is good balance, but I think that's where it is right now for those looking to min/max.

Their going to need to make some harder hitting magical attacks then. As the floor 4 alexander, I can already be in Sword oath MTing. Mix between vit and str accessories and deal with the mechanics of the little yellow orbs and lasers... and if things really go to shit, back up heals since I can't block any way....

Though to be fair, I'm willing to bet DRK could probably do the same. Though no self maintenance and cures for the party..

[Alphras]

Don't get hung up on the current content, this whole discussion only matters for savage.

[Kiteless]

Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

And then WAR can also pop Inner Beast and Vengeance and Raw Intuition on top of that too. That doesn't change the fact that Thrill+Conv has added eHP to WAR. Yes, PLD's improved Convalescence will make it easier to recover health, and thus, easier to recover from tankbusters, but only WAR can use it (combined with Thrill of Battle, as mentioned above), to actually survive tankbusters better.

edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.

And once again, you are missing the point. Thrill of Battle increases your maximum HP while also healing you for that amount, while Convalescence makes healing easier. This is a direct increase to effective HP by 17%, in the same way that Rampart is a direct increase to effective HP by 20%.

If a WAR and a PLD have 1000 base HP, and they are both in their tanking stance, this is what we have:

WAR effective HP:
1000*(1.2 eHP gain from Defiance)=1200 effective hit points


PLD effective HP:
1000*(1.2 eHP gain from Shield Oath)=1200 effective hit points

Now, the Paladin will still only have 1000HP listed, but including all the mitigation and buffs it has active at this point in time, it is as if it had 1200 hit points. Similarly, WAR's defiance grants a 25% increase to HP, and a 20% increase to healing. This ends up being around equal to the 20% mitigation that PLD's Shield Oath has, meaning that WAR also has 1200 effective hit points in this scenario, even though he'll be listed as having 1250 HP. WAR having slightly higher HP in this scenario does impact things a bit, but we'll leave it as it is for the sake of simplification.

So, when PLD uses any other mitigation skill, it is, in effect, increasing its effective hit points so that it may take whatever blow comes its way. For example, if that PLD uses rampart, that's a 20% increase in mitigation, which, for the time being, means a 20% increase in effective HP.

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath and Rampart:
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

Similarly, if WAR uses inner beast in addition with defiance, it nets a similar effect.

WAR effective HP with Defiance and Inner Beast:
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

Notice how these numbers are the same, even though the method of mitigation is different? This is because effective HP is a way of breaking down various methods of mitigation to see their true, base effectiveness. This is very, very basic math right here.

Now, if a PLD uses Convalescence in addition to the above, he gains a 30% bonus to his healing, but it does not increase his effective HP, since it does nothing of value to help him to soak the next blows.

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath, Rampart, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

But if WAR uses Convalescence with Thrill of Battle, that provides a combined bonus that does increase his effective HP. Combining the factors of increased healing, along with increased match HP (and the fact that your HP is healed proportionately), this is mathhammere'd out to be around 17% overall increase.

So WAR effective HP with Defiance, Inner Beast, Thrill of Battle, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2*1.17=1685 effective HP

This is a unique skill interaction for WAR, since none of the other tanks have abilities that increase their max health to coincide with the improved healing ability of Convalescence. And because of this, despite PLD having a trait that makes him easier to heal with it, WAR is the only tank that can use Convalescence as part of an actual mitigation tool.

Once again, this is very basic math.

[Krr]

I think DRK MT + WAR OT is going to be the best for magic fights since the DRK's anti-magic abilities are strong and you get the WAR's SP/SE and great DPS. So I'm anticipating the best raid setup may be to have your PLD level a DRK and swap classes based on the fight.

I mean, I don't think this is good balance, but I think that's where it is right now for those looking to min/max.

Yeah, fair enough. DRK MT | WAR OT is probably the highest party DPS you can achieve as well since it enables NIN | DRG (battle litany + TA), but probably not by a terribly huge margin.

[Captain_Burrito]

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath, Rampart, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

....

So WAR effective HP with Defiance, Inner Beast, Thrill of Battle, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2*1.17=1685 effective HP

But now you're comparing 4 WAR cooldowns/abilities with PLD's 3. What's the math when you add Sheltron (PLD's IB equivalent for tank busters)? (I honestly have no idea how block strength works). I mean, the more cooldowns, the more mitigation, right?

[Kiteless]

Is that question supposed to be for the sake of obfuscation, or are you actually attempting to raise some silly sort of point? That has nothing to do with this. It's not a dick measuring contest of who's got the most cooldowns, it's about the fact that WAR has exclusive access to a skill interaction that allows Convalescence to be part of a mitigation combo, a method of using the skill which no other class can replicate. To illustrate the point that effective HP is not always in the form of a percentage-based reduction in damage.

[Captain_Burrito]

If the point is that convalesence is useful to WAR's Thrill of Battle, then that's fine. Misunderstood the point of the post about surviving tankbusters.

Just note that its a variable eHP bonus that's limited in relation to the WAR's current HP. If you're already at full health when popping Thrill of Battle in prep for a tank buster (which... you should be), then Convalesence's bonus eHP is lost.

[Timat]

Just want to add something for a bit.

Everyone is saying how much of an advantage DRK has over other thanks when it comes to magic damage.

We all know that this comes down to 1 skill right?

Dark Mind is the only thing (aside from Delerium which is a debuff that can be applied by a DPS class so I am not counting that as DRK specific) in the DRK kit that specifically addresses magic damage.

Now its not a half bad skill......10sec duration, 60sec CD 15% redux (30% if you sink a DA into it) but its still just that one skill.

I dont really thing ONE SKILL is enough to hang up everything and say "DRK is the best out of all for magic damage" or even that DRK will have a significant edge over other classes in things like A4

And the CD is still 1min on things like A4 in P1 and 2 you can use it on CD pretty much and get a good gain off it on P3 most arent going to be popping it willy nilly and will sit on the CD for the tank buster.

[Domira]

I think Dark Mind is just too weak without using Dark Arts to buff it. I'm not mathematician but how does Inner Beast compare to Dark Mind with and without Dark Arts?

[Krr]

I think Dark Mind is just too weak without using Dark Arts to buff it. I'm not mathematician but how does Inner Beast compare to Dark Mind with and without Dark Arts?

Dark Mind is 15%/30% and Inner Beast is 20%+a small selfheal. Buffed DM is substantially better and unbuffed is a little worse, basically.