Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Giantbane]

1) A 10s Vengeance that only works...
2) Probably less than half

That said, DRKS have other things other tanks DONT have--amazing aoe, 2000+ potency off gcd per minute, etc etc. Not saying its rosey, they definitely need some work, but i cant imagine them getting really strong defensives without re-balancing elsewhere.

I think they're really just missing one more strong anti-physical ability. And some utility.

[Krr]

That said, DRKS have other things other tanks DONT have--amazing aoe, 2000+ potency off gcd per minute, etc etc. Not saying its rosey, they definitely need some work, but i cant imagine them getting really strong defensives without re-balancing elsewhere.

You just described two things Warriors have - great AOE control and high(er) DPS. They do so at no cost to utility and have equivalent or better maintanking abilities.

I think they're really just missing one more strong anti-physical ability. And some utility.

Yeah this is pretty much it. A tiny EHP bump, one more reliable button for anti-physical damage (even if it's just a change that makes Dark Dance not crummy and unreliable) and a reason for DRK to ever be slotted as OT over WAR or PLD will make the job competitive.

[Xenosan]

It's a 10 second duration.. 17% up-time on that fella.

Good for tank busters,

[Kiteless]

I would happily give up every single AoE DRK had if it meant I could actually be useful in raids.

[Faytte]

[

You just described two things Warriors have - great AOE control and high(er) DPS. They do so at no cost to utility and have equivalent or better maintanking abilities.


Yeah this is pretty much it. A tiny EHP bump, one more reliable button for anti-physical damage (even if it's just a change that makes Dark Dance not crummy and unreliable) and a reason for DRK to ever be slotted as OT over WAR or PLD will make the job competitive.

Dark has much better aoe than war. War can burst aoe but that requires stacks and a lengthy cd to redo. Overpower destroys tp. Meanwhile salt the earth is amazing and free, low cd. Unmend and abyssal drain are cheap powers that deal excellent damage.

The issue I think is mindset. Many dark cds seem weak but also have very small cds. Compare dark dance to bulwark. Sure it's half the increase but it can get a Dodge bonus, lasts a third longer and has a tiny cd. Dark mind is a second vengeance every minute. It's hard to buff a class with such low cool downs. It can go from slightly under performing to overpowered quickly due to uptime.

My guess is if they do anything it would be to buff them and increase their cds. On the other hand this might all be wrong thinking. I've done all the ex and Alexander's and the only true buster has been in a4 and it dealt magic damage

[Krr]

Dark has much better aoe than war. War can burst aoe but that requires stacks and a lengthy cd to redo. Overpower destroys tp. Meanwhile salt the earth is amazing and free, low cd. Unmend and abyssal drain are cheap powers that deal excellent damage.

can you measure the additional party DPS produced by this 'amazing aoe'? because tanks of old weren't really having aoe threat problems to begin with

The issue I think is mindset. Many dark cds seem weak but also have very small cds.

fact check

Compare dark dance to bulwark.

compare dark dance to raw intuition, lol. don't tell me you're actually gonna get hit from behind when you're fighting a raid boss that takes up 1/4 the screen. while we're at it, point me to a buster in 3.0 that can actually be evaded

Dark mind is a second vengeance every minute.

against less than half the attacks in the game right now, and less than a quarter of the busters in the game r/n

I seriously don't know how we can make 'uptime' as a serious argument for DRK cooldowns when inner beast exists and paladins have almost no gaps between their cooldown availability if played correctly

Every dark knight cooldown except dark mind is longer than, or equivalent to its counterparts present in other tanks. even dark dance has identical uptime to raw intuition yet is worse in every way except for trash pulls.

This all neglects that drk has no 100% uptime physical damage debuff like halone or storm's, less EHP than paladins, with their access to blockrate, and warriors, with their significantly higher raw HP, meaning that in addition to having shoddy, unreliable physical mitigation in the form of dark dance, dark knight is also missing something like 20% of the other tanks' passive EHP overall

The only argument I can honestly make in DRK's favor is that dark arts souleater is an almost-reliable way to get a 20% refund on most busters you'll eat except that won't stop you from dying if the damage you took exceeds your current HP and it can and will screw with your healer's perception of how much HP you actually have. Except, you know, again, that's just a poor man's inner beast

so what are dark knights gaining for this measurable disadvantage in maintanking, total lack of party utility, and inferior MT/OT DPS to Warriors? aoe damage that they can't even use 1/3 of the time because it'll run them out of MP if they do? the ability to not take damage from trash pulls in speedruns? woo-hoo. real competitive raiding job there.

congratulations, you can replace half of what a monk brings to a party in exchange for battle hymn and trick attack. except you either gave up your paladin and became the MT (enjoy your healers screaming in panic every time a savage boss so much as breathes on you,) or you replaced the warrior because apparently your static leader is literally insane and thinks "not needing a monk" is worth giving up a permanent 10% damage debuff, like 10% bonus DPS for your ninja, and FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEA

Also paladins have been dealing with blind immunity for years as well as pacification immunity.

paladins also have five cooldowns that work every time you use them instead of "when the game decides they should work" and "against those two whole endgame bosses that deal significant amounts of magic damage to the tank"

paladins didn't have an entire defensive cooldown balanced around the fact that they could blind enemies to improve it

paladins aren't required to pacify enemies in order to get damage reduction that is competitive to other tanks

[Alphras]

...

Just to get some things straight:
- PLD, DRK and WAR have exactly the same eHP outside of buffs with WAR being the most difficult to heal up again (all healing abilities are currently not affected by Defiance and heals in general are less efficient). Calculating eHP with buffs is pointless and completely fight dependant.
- PLD also has two unique cooldowns that only work against physical damage with bulwark being unreliable vs tank busters. WAR has one for physical. DRK has a unreliable one for physical and a really strong one for magical damage.
- Alexander 4 only deals magic damage to the MT, we will see how that translates into relevant content.

DRK has a really solid tanking toolset with Shadowskin, Shadow Wall and Dark Mind IF Square keeps using Magic Damage in new encounters. They should get some changes to their OT toolset, but that was discussed ad nauseam.

[SpookyGhost]

- PLD, DRK and WAR have exactly the same eHP outside of buffs with WAR being the most difficult to heal up again (all healing abilities are currently not affected by Defiance and heals in general are less efficient). Calculating eHP with buffs is pointless and completely fight dependant.

There is a 1% healing difference between WAR and PLD/DRK. All healing spells are affected by Defiance's +healing recieved. All 3 tanks are pretty much baseline equal, it's only the CDs that separate them.

[Timat]

- Alexander 4 only deals magic damage to the MT, we will see how that translates into relevant content.

You sure EVERYTHING is magic damage in A4? I am pretty sure the missles arent and in fact the only thing I am certain is magic is the tank buster.

[Alphras]

Could be a ACT bug, but it noted everything as magic damage and I didn't see a single parry on the rockets (or anything else outside of the small adds).