Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[PerihVashai]

WAR is actually really good against Perpetual as it comes out in bursts. You can Equilibrium after one comes out to heal yourself for a good chunk. You can also Infuriate + Inner beast the 2nd/3rd Perpetual to take advantage of the IB heal as well for once. DA+Dark Mind is really good here but I don't think it's miles ahead of what WAR can offer. DA+Dark Mind + Shadowskin is about as good as Inner Beast + Vengeance. As for PLD, they can also HG to easily negate once set of Perpetuals, but their mitigation against magic damage is admittedly weaker (PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

DRK can living dead the later ones as well with close to no penalty if benediction is up. IB is weaker than souleater as well. WAR is by no means miles behind but DRK is ahead, not to mention the group would benefit more by having a WAR OT DPS in this current meta.

Not really relevant slight derail:

(PLDs were weaker against Ahk Morn compared to WAR as well).

It really depends on what your CD prioritization was if you did
1st: WAR IB/VENG PLD RAMP/SENT
2nd: Holmgang
3rd: Hallowed
4th: War IB/VENG PLD RAMP SENT
PLD is ahead at this point
5th: Holmgang, need pld to stack for the first hit though.
Needless to say this is probably the best way to do it from a CD perspective imo. However most people don’t do this nor would I trust the 5th ahkmorn to be done like that in a pug haha

edit:

Pair Thrill with a cross class Convalescence and it works exactly like another shadowskin (except it's equivalent to 17% mitigation, so it's a little weaker).

The thing about WAR is they can have SP up all the time (a little stronger than delerium, and you can have a MNK put it up) and they can have inner beast up for every tank buster. Sure inner beast only lasts 6s, but you can use it at least 3x more often than you can use DA + Dark Mind. Then, on top of that, they've got vengeance and thrill of battle+convalescence at relatively low cooldowns, so that helps too. I think this puts them on par with DRK against magical damage. I don't think it necessarily makes them *better* but it at least makes them equivalent.

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

Also just to make sure everyone's on the same page the context here is A4 and nothing else btw.

[Kiteless]

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

The point he's making is that, for the sake of eating tank busters, WAR's unique combination of conv+thrill increases eHP, allowing it to act as a form of mitigation (similar to how Defiance works), which none of the other tanks can do. Conv+thrill is nearly as effective as shadow wall in this respect, and is very definitely a mitigation tool.

[PerihVashai]

The point he's making is that, for the sake of eating tank busters, WAR's unique combination of conv+thrill increases eHP, allowing it to act as a form of mitigation (similar to how Defiance works), which none of the other tanks can do. Conv+thrill is nearly as effective as shadow wall in this respect, and is very definitely a mitigation tool.

Except for the fact that you're neglecting that Dark Knight has access to Conv so making it as a comparison against DRK is a moot point unless its increasing the potency of thrill, which it's not. The only active self heal that can KIND OF be considered mitigation really is bloodbath, and that's only because it persists. Once a self heal has been popped that's it, there is no mitigation past that point. You just equilibrium for 4k? Great it saved MP. Shadow wall just shaved off 30% and it's going to continue shaving it off. Not to mention once the perpetual ray starts adding up Shadow Wall is much more effective.

edit: Oh right maim, long day at work herp. Thanks!

[Giantbane]

Thrill of battle isn't mitigation its a self heal, which can increase the mp efficiency. I'm not sure if you're implying conv + thrill stack because that's not the case? DRK also gains access to conv as well. The implication wasn't to drop the WAR but to lose the PLD. Keep in mind though when you start factoring in self heals sure they help out for big hitters but they don't continue to mitigate past that point where CDS like dark mind and rampart do etc.

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.

You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.

Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.

So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.

[PerihVashai]

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount. You know how Defiance works? Where it increases your HP and it increases the amount of healing done to you. You know how this makes it work almost exactly like Grit & Shield Oath do in terms of how much damage you can take and how much healing your require? This is despite the fact that Defiance isn't actual mitigation.

Going to give you the benefit of the doubt on the almost. Because Grit/SOath are better from an MP efficiency perspective by roughly 5%.

Thrill increases your max hit points by 20% AND heals by that amount.
Thrill increases your max HP, Convalescence increases the amount of healing you receive. Use them at the same time and it works exactly like Defiance does.
So for all intents and purposes, when you use both abilities together, it works just like the Warrior's version of Rampart & Shadowskin.

Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.

[Giantbane]

Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.

Having a bigger HP pool allows you to take bigger hits, aka tank busters. The problem is that because you took a bigger hit, you need more heals to recover from it. In terms of sustained damage, the problem is that once that HP is gone, it's gone. The point, is that convalescence will completely, 100% cover that problem with thrill of battle. So when you use both together it is just as effective as pure mitigation.

PLD & DRK can of course use Convalescence any time they need extra healing. But they don't have anything like thrill of battle to pair it with to make it function just like another mitigation cooldown. They get the increased healing throughput as a % of incoming damage, and better MP efficiency, but they don't get the eHP increase that mitigation also provides.

Practical usage, WAR can use both together and create another strong defensive cooldown that is in line with Shadowskin or Rampart. If you're listing off abilities used for mitigation and don't list thrill, then you're selling the WAR short.

[Krr]

So basically to justify taking DRK on a raid you have to not have a MNK in the group, be fighting a boss that deals primarily magical damage, is preferably but not necessarily parryable for access to reprise, and have the ot be a warrior willing to use deliverance because lmao sword oath paladins.

However, both Paladin and Warrior can maintank these fights equally well, without the arbitrary requirement that the boss have a significant magical attack, and be fully optimal to slot in any standard 2-2-4 party composition.

So, we've laid out the long list of arbitrary requirements needed to justify a Dark Knight in the group. What advantages does this afford the group, if any, that could not be had by replacing the Dark Knight with a Warrior or Paladin and allowing for more flexibility?

[Kiteless]

Again the point you’re missing is that a PLD can pop RAMPART and CONV and a DRK can pop Shadow Skin and CONV. This means the only thing in WAR’s benefit (in your comparison) is the thrill of battle being compared to rampart and shadowskin. In fact you’re actually arguing against yourself here because a PLD gets enhanced 30% which makes it even more effective on a PLD.

And then WAR can also pop Inner Beast and Vengeance and Raw Intuition on top of that too. That doesn't change the fact that Thrill+Conv has added eHP to WAR. Yes, PLD's improved Convalescence will make it easier to recover health, and thus, easier to recover from tankbusters, but only WAR can use it (combined with Thrill of Battle, as mentioned above), to actually survive tankbusters better.

edit: Additionally increasing your HP by an factor does not increase mitigation or MP efficiency on heals (well outside of old lustrate), it simply just increases your HP pool. If you don't need that HP the only thing that is of benefit is the self heal that's the only thing you can actually compare.

And once again, you are missing the point. Thrill of Battle increases your maximum HP while also healing you for that amount, while Convalescence makes healing easier. This is a direct increase to effective HP by 17%, in the same way that Rampart is a direct increase to effective HP by 20%.

If a WAR and a PLD have 1000 base HP, and they are both in their tanking stance, this is what we have:

WAR effective HP:
1000*(1.2 eHP gain from Defiance)=1200 effective hit points


PLD effective HP:
1000*(1.2 eHP gain from Shield Oath)=1200 effective hit points

Now, the Paladin will still only have 1000HP listed, but including all the mitigation and buffs it has active at this point in time, it is as if it had 1200 hit points. Similarly, WAR's defiance grants a 25% increase to HP, and a 20% increase to healing. This ends up being around equal to the 20% mitigation that PLD's Shield Oath has, meaning that WAR also has 1200 effective hit points in this scenario, even though he'll be listed as having 1250 HP. WAR having slightly higher HP in this scenario does impact things a bit, but we'll leave it as it is for the sake of simplification.

So, when PLD uses any other mitigation skill, it is, in effect, increasing its effective hit points so that it may take whatever blow comes its way. For example, if that PLD uses rampart, that's a 20% increase in mitigation, which, for the time being, means a 20% increase in effective HP.

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath and Rampart:
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

Similarly, if WAR uses inner beast in addition with defiance, it nets a similar effect.

WAR effective HP with Defiance and Inner Beast:
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

Notice how these numbers are the same, even though the method of mitigation is different? This is because effective HP is a way of breaking down various methods of mitigation to see their true, base effectiveness. This is very, very basic math right here.

Now, if a PLD uses Convalescence in addition to the above, he gains a 30% bonus to his healing, but it does not increase his effective HP, since it does nothing of value to help him to soak the next blows.

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath, Rampart, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

But if WAR uses Convalescence with Thrill of Battle, that provides a combined bonus that does increase his effective HP. Combining the factors of increased healing, along with increased match HP (and the fact that your HP is healed proportionately), this is mathhammere'd out to be around 17% overall increase.

So WAR effective HP with Defiance, Inner Beast, Thrill of Battle, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2*1.17=1685 effective HP

This is a unique skill interaction for WAR, since none of the other tanks have abilities that increase their max health to coincide with the improved healing ability of Convalescence. And because of this, despite PLD having a trait that makes him easier to heal with it, WAR is the only tank that can use Convalescence as part of an actual mitigation tool.

Once again, this is very basic math.

[Captain_Burrito]

PLD effective HP with Shield Oath, Rampart, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2=1440 effective HP

....

So WAR effective HP with Defiance, Inner Beast, Thrill of Battle, and Convalescence
1000*1.2*1.2*1.17=1685 effective HP

But now you're comparing 4 WAR cooldowns/abilities with PLD's 3. What's the math when you add Sheltron (PLD's IB equivalent for tank busters)? (I honestly have no idea how block strength works). I mean, the more cooldowns, the more mitigation, right?

[PerihVashai]

snip.

You realize the reciprocal of 4/5(80% or more commonly the damage the pld/drk takes) is 5/4 which makes the oath's a 1.25 effective hp btw while WARs stay at 1.2. Yes this is very basic math indeed. . .

Additionally you cannot raw intuition the manipulator in a4. Did you miss the point where I said only in the context of a fight like a4? O.o