Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

[Kaedan94]

Lets not just act as if War's don't have a 1200 potency heal every 60 seconds that scales off of their AP.

Great. And DRKs have Soul Eater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survior... what of it?

And Magic cannot be parried, thus Reprisal isn't even an option in pure magic fights. It shouldn't even be listed as one if Raw Intuition isn't.

Great. And DRKs have Dark Mind, what of it?

[Xenosan]

Great. That WAR would make an equally good MT to a DRK. Not better though.

To feed or not to feed..

I suggest you take a harder look at what Giantbane is explaining. It seems the core of tanking meta - EHP - is something you've yet to grasp.

Also, I'm not seeing a single tank class leveled on your lodestone.

That might be another indication.

Probably going to have to wait for someone to math the whole thing out and get a lot of parses to verify before we have a clear winner between the two. Sure the WAR's damage is going to skyrocket for 20s every 2min, but the DRK is the clear winner for the other 100s.

You pretty much sum it up right there. Burst VS sustained - it depends on the fight, how the phase transitions work, how much downtime etc etc..

[Kaedan94]

I suggest you take a harder look at what Giantbane is explaining. It seems the core of tanking meta - EHP - is something you've yet to grasp.

Also, I'm not seeing a single tank class leveled on your lodestone.

That might be another indication.

Umm... I think you're having the issue understanding. Yes, I'm perfectly aware that 20% reduction and 20% more HP are essentially the same result. What you don't seem to be getting is that if the WAR has the same HP as a DRK WITH Defiance up, then the mitigation from Defiance is "worthless" by comparison. A DRK with 16,000 HP and a WAR with 16,000 HP (in Defiance), the DRK can turn on Grit and get an additional 20% mitigation the WAR no longer has by comparison. In that case, the closest thing the WAR could use to match is IB.

A 20k HP WAR (in Defiance) vs a 16k DRK in Grit are roughly equal.

Take a look at my signature, pal. Maybe you'll get the hint. My character's main was PLD before HW and is now DRK.

[SpookyGhost]

You can tell you're in the tanking forum when everyone is so defensive about their job.

Eh? Eh?

[Kaedan94]

Alright, let's refocus:

DRK:

-Grit: "Permanent" 20% Damage reduction
-Shadowskin: 20% Damage reduction for 20s every 90s
-Dark Dance: +30% chance to Parry for 20s every 60 seconds
-Dark Mind: 30% Magic damage reduction for 10s every 60 seconds
-Shadowwall: 30% damage reduction for 10s every 180 seconds
-Living Dead: "Invulnerability" for 10s, contingent upon having an amount of healing equal to your Max HP applied during that 10s. Every 300s
-Reprisal: 10% damage debuff for 20s every 30s (yes, unless the target doesn't use any physical attacks, you can activate it reliably every 30s)
-Delirium: 10% INT Debuff for 20s potentially indefinitely.

WAR:
-Defiance: 25% increase to max HP
-Holmgang: "Invulnerability" for 6s, but cannot move. Every 180s. Still need to be healed to safe levels before 6s is up (essentially same as DRK).
-Inner Beast: 20% damage reduction for 6s every 15-20 seconds IF planned for.
-Raw Intuition: 100% parry from front only for 20s every 90s.
-Vengeance: 30% damage reduction for 15s every 120s.
-Storm's Path: 10% damage debuff for 20s potentially indefinitely.


So, if a WAR uses VIT accessories:

-Grit = Defiance
-Shadowskin < Inner Beast
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash)
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks)
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compare

In this case, DRK and WAR are more or less equal. WAR has some slight benefits in areas, and a lack in others compared to DRK. However, if the WAR chooses to Stance Dance, the advantage goes to the DRK, due to losing the 25% max HP mitigation every time (which has to be healed back).

If the WAR is using STR accessories, the DRK has a clear mitigation advantage over the WAR.

You keep saying this, but you haven't backed this up at all. Hell, it took a while for you to actually accept that this was an important comparison that should be made.

What are you talking about? o.O

I backed it up in every post I said it in. A 20k WAR (in Defiance) is the same level of mitigation as a 16k DRK (in Grit). That's about a 20% difference in HP and Grit grants a 20% reduction, so they roughly equal. And I never had a problem accepting that max HP% increase results in the same eHP as the equivalent Damage Reduction. What you continuously didn't seem to understand is that I was comparing WARs with 16k HP to DRKs with 16k HP. In that case, if the WAR has that 16k with Defiance on, they have a huge mitigation disadvantage compared to a DRK, because the DRK still has the 20% Grit reduction on top of his HP which is the same.

[Giantbane]

-Shadowskin < Inner Beast
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash)
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks)
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compare

You left out thrill of battle. If you pair it with convalescence, it's just like shadowskin or rampart except it's on a 2min cooldown.

And Inner Beast is so much better than Shadowskin that you might as well say:

Inner Beast > Shadowskin AND Delerium AND Dark Mind

I don't see how the DRK wins at anything on its own. It's only potential saving grace is that reprisal stacks with storm's path. But it's still somewhat unreliable and requires a WAR OT.

[Faytte]

Alright, let's refocus:
-Grit = Defiance
-Shadowskin < Inner Beast
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash)
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks)
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compare

-Grit = Defiance True
-Shadowskin < Inner Beast True
-Dark Dance < Raw Intuition against single targets, but can be used 1.33 times more often False. Awarness on side targets, you can have 1-3 smaller adds on you that are still in the front arc. More than that and you pop awarness (or dont care since that many targets are unlikely to be clipping you that hard?)
-Dark Mind = WAR has nothing to compare False. Inner Beast. They can have it up for every important buster. If you are worried about none busters--then calling about cd's are kind of irrelevant?
-Shadow Wall <= Vengeance (Vengeance is slightly better due to lower CD and reflect, but from a mitigation standpoint they are essentially the same)False, its far better--it gives a damage reflect which is amazing in mass pools and a stack of wrath toward another IB or Cyclone. Given IB is mitigation, that is relevant.
-Living Dead = Holmgang (In both cases you have to be healed to a safe level. DRK needs to be healed a little more, but Holmgang lasts 4 seconds less, so that's a wash) False--but ish. Holmgang has a very better CD and a root effect which has some (but limited) uses.
-Reprisal <= Storm's Path (Storm's Path has a slight advantage as it can be kept up indefinitely, but they are effectively the same result and Reprisal only has 10s of downtime every 30s as long as the mob has physical attacks) True, but not a slight advantage--not at all a slight advantage. You can have 100% uptime on Storms Path, and can use it as an off tank
-Delirium = WAR has nothing to compareTrue, but largely irrelevant

Things you missed

-Thrill of Battle: Instant 25% heal or 25% buffer depending on how you want to use it. Amazing.
-Equilibrium: Instant super heal! Works off berserk if it happens to be up! Amazing ^_^

You cherry pick arguments quite a bit it looks like? Its kind of funny to see ^_^

[Kaedan94]

Ironically, a bunch of cherry picked crap. Interesting you accuse me of it.

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.


@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

[Giantbane]

I specifically didn't include any skill that any tank can use, such as Convalescence and Awareness. All tanks can use them, so trying to use them in argument is ridiculous.

@Giantbane I didn't include healing, because healing isn't mitigation. And DRK's self-healing is very good anyway.

Mitigation is two things. First, it increases your eHP. This lets you take more damage before you die. This is pretty obvious. Second, mitigation means you require less healing to recover from those hits. If you are hit by a 2000 point hit with grit on, you only take 1600 hp of damage. Thus it takes 1600 hp worth of heals to restore the damage lost to that hit. We've already covered this with Grit vs. Defiance.

Now when you take thrill of battle, this will increase your eHP, and you cast convalescence at the same time, it reduces the amount you need to be healed. The effect, is very mathematically close to what rampart or shadowskin does (~17% vs. 20%). So for all intents and purposes, you can use these two abilities *together* and it will work almost as good as shadowskin.

It's not that DRK & PLD can't use convalescence, it's that they don't have an ability like thrill of battle to pair it with.

[Kalma51]

People trying to say Drk is just fine really don't know anything about the class. Sure Drk isn't terrible or isn't Warrior 2.0 bad, but they far from what War / Pld is right now. War / Pld tools are far better in just about all aspects.

Below are ability lists so you can compare without needing to do a bunch of research, and come to a better understanding of how all three tanks stack up to each other.

I can't even compare the aspects for this as being remotely even, well lets start with Defensive capabilities? Not going to cover cross class skills with this.

Pld = Shield Oath -1GCD- Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Shelton -30s- Blocks the next physical attack for 10s. Additional Effect: Partial MP restored upon block (restores 707 MP at lv 60), Better Def and less Cd then our Carve and Spit.
Divine Veil -150s- Upon next HP recovery via healing magic cast by a party member, a protective barrier is cast on all party members within 15y for 30s.
Barrier Effect: Prevents damage up to 10% of PLD's max HP for 30s. Drk / War don't have anything like that.
Clemency -1GCD (MP 2121)- Restores target's HP. Cure Potency: 1200 - Additional Effect: Restores to self 50% of HP restored to target if target is a party member.
Rampart -90s- Reduces damage taken by 20% for 20s.
Convalescence -120s- Increases HP restored by spells or actions by 30%.
Awareness -120s- Nullifies the chance of suffering critical damage for 25s
Sentinel -180s- Reduces damage taken by 40% for 10s.
Bulwark -180s- Increases block rate by 60% for 15s. (Which block is so much better then parry)

War = Defiance -10s- Increases maximum HP by 25%, while lowering damage dealt by 25% and increasing enmity. Increases HP recovery via curing magic by 20% for self. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
2% Parry per stack (5 total)
Raw Intuition -90s- Parries all attacks taken from the front for 20s. All attacks taken from the flank or rear will result in critical damage.
Equilibrium -60s- Restores own HP when used with Defiance. Cure Potency: 1200. Restores 200 TP when used with Deliverance. (All tanks should have a form of this)
Bloodbath -90s- Converts 25% of the damage dealt by next successful offensive ability into HP - Buff duration: 30 sec.
Foresight -90s- Increases defense by 20% for 20 sec. (nothing special)
Vengeance -120s- Reduces damage taken by 30% and delivers an attack with a potency of 50 every time you suffer physical damage for 15s
Thrill of Battle -120s- Increases maximum HP by 20% and restores the amount increased for 20s.
Inner Beast -1GCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. Ignores the 25% damage penalty inflicted by Defiance. Additional Effect: Absorb 100% of damage dealt as HP Additional Effect: Reduces
damage taken by 20%

Drk = Grit -1GCD (MP Cost 1300+)- Reduces damage received by 20%, while lowering damage dealt by 20% and increasing enmity. Also increases chance to hit by 5%.
Shadowskin -90s- Reduces damage taken by 20%. Duration: 20s
Dark Dance -60s (MP Cost 1768)- Increases parry rate by 30%. Can only be executed while succumbing to the Darkside. Duration: 20s - Dark Arts Effect: Evasion increased by 20%
Dark Mind -60s (Mp Cost 1768)- educes magic vulnerability by 15%. Can only be used when succumbing to the Darkside. Duration: 10s. Dark Arts Effect: Increase magic vulnerability reduction to 30%.
Shadow Wall -180s- Reduces damage taken by 30%. Duration: 10s

Now this is only what each class has base without cross class CDs. Soooooooo

Pld = 8 CDs / Cross = 10 Cds
War = 7 Cds / Cross = 10 Cds
Drk = 4 Cds / Cross = 7 Cds

Pld / War even out quite well but Drk is 3 Cds short. Having a Pld tank stance without a shield for added Mitigation, kinda hinders Drk. Case and point is that Drk just isn't as good nor ever will be as good as Pld / War until those issues are fixed. (Stance and Cds)

This is only the Defensive side of the issue.

Now for dps potential: This is mainly for single target!

Pld = Sword Oath -1GCD- Increases the potency of auto-attacks by 50. (quite powerful)
Goring Blade combo -3GCD- 920 potency / Mp regen (Takes 24sec to achieve this potency)
Royal Authority combo -3GCD- 690 potency / enmity combo
Rage of Halone combo -3GCD- 610 potency / enmity / Utility combo (-10% str on target)
Circle of Scorn -25s- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies. Additional Effect: Damage over time for 15s, Potency: 30 (combined total potency of 250 per target).
Fight or Flight -90s- Increases physical damage dealt by 30% for 30s. (33% up time)
Mercy Stroke -90s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%.

War = Deliverance -10s- Increases damage dealt by 5%. 2% Crit Rate per stack (5 stacks)
Storm's Eye combo -3GCD- 610 potency / 20% dmg up / 10% slash resistance down / 50% reduced healing (so gets more powerful then what the potency would say)
Storm's Path combo -3GCD- 590 potency (again 20% more dmg / 10% slash resist down so more powerful then potency tells) 50% dmg done heal / -10% dmg from target
Butcher's Block combo -3GCD- 630 potency / enmity combo
Fracture -90s-Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Damage over time with potency of 20 for 30s- potency 300
Fell Cleave -9GCD (or with Infuriate every 60s)- Delivers an attack with a potency of 500.
Brutal Swing -20s oGCD- potency 50 / Stuns for 3sec
Berserk -90s- Increases attack power by 50% for 20s. Unable to use weapon skills for 5 seconds after effect fades.
Mercy Stroke -40s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%
Internal Release -60s- Increases critical hit rate by 20% for 15s.

Drk = Darkside -5s (MP 443)- MP is slowly drained while increasing damage dealt by 15%. MP refreshing statuses have no effect.
Souleater combo -3GCD (MP cost if DA used 1768)- 660 potency normal / 800 potency with DA / MP regen
Delirium combo -3GCD- 680 potency / MP regen / -10% Int on target
Power Slash -3GCD (MP cost if DA used 1768)- 670 potency / enmity combo / boosted enmity with DA
Scourge -1GCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Damage over time with a Potency of 40 for 18s (30s with trait) (combined total potency of 500 with trait)
Low Blow -25s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Additional Effect: Stun Duration: 5s Additional Effect: 30% chance that next parry will reset the recast timer
Salted Earth -45s oGCD- Creates a patch of salted earth, dealing unaspected damage with a potency of 75 to any enemies who enter. Duration: 21s (combined total potency of 525 per target)
Plunge -30s oGCD- Delivers a jumping attack with a potency of 200.
Carve and Spit -60s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 100. Also restores MP if used while not under the effect of Dark Arts. Dark Arts Potency: 450
Blood Weapon -40s- Increases attack speed by 10% and converts physical damage dealt into MP. Duration: 15s
Mercy Stroke -90s oGCD- Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Can only be executed when target's HP is below 20%.

Now it may seem like Pld doesn't bring much to the table on the lack of abilites, but there pure potency and stance / buffs are powerful. Making them very consistant, on the other hand War / Drk seem quite similar. Not close really if you get down to it.

War has a very fuild rotation and great buff uptime to further increase there deadly tool kit. Out of the 3 tanks they have highest burst hands down. Probably best OT in game considered by most, even though I think Pld can make them work for that title.

Drk has on paper quite a great dps tool kit (until you release MP is a pain in the ass to manage along with TP), but in practice it is clunky and not effective really. Button bloat is more trouble causing then helpful. DA is clunky and punishes you more then helps. While Drk on paper shows them to be quite powerful and consistent for dps, in reality this isn't the case at all.

I really hope this shows the overall short comings of the Drk class, and people can now better address the issue with knowledge at hand.