Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

[Lillia]

Actually, I don't remember it taking long for people to figure out that 2 BLMs for a speedrun worked a lot better than BLM+BRD.

For me it was kinda common sense from the start.

I don't remember the skill "Bard Hop" being an attack either but apparently it is. xD

The reason I think our DPS is low is because a few of our skills are locked behind WM right now, if and when WM is properly fixed then we'll have a bit more of a boost not only because of whatever small boost the song will probably give but the skills we can use too. I mean really, aside from machinist... what other jobs have you honestly saw on the forums saying "we're broken and these new skills suck" so far?

Maybe some has their downs right now but they are not bad enough to where they are flat out avoiding a skill that activates 2 other skills. I mean lets be honest, if Iron Jaws and Empyreal Arrow was open to us without WM right now then what Bard wouldn't use it? Probably none would avoid the skills as much as they do right now.

Other new jobs have new rotations that use or weave in newer skills with new effects. We don't, we're stuck on the same 2.55 rotation with one new additional skill as opposed to the 3~5 skills every other job now can use for dps. Of course there won't be any big change, the only way we're going to see if Bard's DPS goes up in my opinion is when WM is properly fixed and when we change our rotations to actually add it in however it's going to used when that happens.

[Eirwen]

Since hardly anybody talked in chat when they were in need of MP, I learned to keep an eye out on their MP bars and quite often managed to sing a Mage's Ballad mere seconds before a healer would address the need for it. It would be very nice if Bards were able to see TP bars of the entire party with an action or trait called Scan or Libra (Though Libra was used to scan mobs for stats in earlier FF games).

I agree Bard needs some changes around Wanderer's Minuet. I'm not at 60 yet and right now it feels like I'm giving up my Damage Per Second with that song on because of the delay and lack of auto-attack. All it seems to be doing right now is lower out damage output and mobility, making fights last longer and harder to dodge without losing even more DPS which we already pay for with the things mentioned before.

Whenever Duty Finder places me, a bard, in a light party with another bard, I prepare myself for a longer lasting dungeon. It's fun to meet another Bard, though.

[Intellion]

This is what i'm hoping the bards will understand, i totally support changes like the ones you are saying.

Please now follow me, i am no lvl 60 bard, i'm really stupid and all but take some time to really think about what i am going to say.
SE made a pretty clear choice with Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet and that is: "We don't want ranged physical classes being able to move everywhere, everytime in total freedom"

Why they made this choice? (The bomb is coming)

If you ever played another DPS other than bard in 2.0 you should have noticed that being a bard in AOE heavy fights was an easier job than being any other DPS in the same situation.
I think that is the reason, and i also think you'll not have your mobility back (and i agree with that)

Thats why i think Wanderer and Gauss could be reconsidered about many aspects but not about the mobility, that is totally cool from my point of view.

I don't think so.

If you actually knew how to play Bards properly post 2.0, especially around 2.5, you'd see that there was nothing "overpowered" about the class. Past 2.0, Bard was a completely balanced and fair class for what it was.

We could move and rapid fire simultaneously, and we had some nice utility songs, but the cost we had to pay was our damage, and to an extent, our durability. But we were fine with that, since mobility was and is still the defining name of this job, not raw damage.

Were AoE-heavy fights easier as a Bard in ARR? Not really. I had both BRD and NIN at 50 by 2.55, and didn't really notice any difference in difficulty between raid bosses. Sure, NIN had to come close and some AoEs were tricky to dodge at melee range, but there were also PLENTY of AoEs that were far harder to dodge at range, meaning that some attacks actually felt easier to dodge as NIN than BRD. Plus, casters and melee effortlessly pumped out much more DPS than us, and we just had to live with it. But at least we were mobile and very flexible. So in the end, everything balanced out perfectly well.

Want a living proof that Bards were balanced in 2.55? If mobility was so "OMG OVERPOWERED nerf pls", then how come a 4-Bard DPS party was undesirable or even considered asinine in places like Second Coil or Final Coil? Why were there even moments when a second Bard would be dismissed in those raids in exchange for a melee or caster?

Simple answer, really: because mobility is NOT overpowered, at least not after the post-2.0 nerfs that Bards already got.

So your claim that "Bards don't deserve mobility" because it's too "OP?" It doesn't hold up, because you literally just took away the only thing that made the class stand out. Since it's been proven that ALL classes have some sort of utility, you can't count that as a Bard exclusive. So in ARR, these are what defined the different DPS classes:

Melee: High-powered, instant melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered, instant ranged attacks. Mobile.

As you can see, it's a perfectly balanced "triangle" that sorts itself out.

In 3.0, this is now how DPS classes look like:

Melee: High-powered, insta-cast melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.

Ranged DPS had their only defining point taken away unjustly, and have now effectively become inferior casters should they be forced to adopt Minuet/Gauss Barrel. Might as well play a caster.

But wait! Many Bards chose to roll as Ranged DPS and not as Casters when they first started pre-Heavensward! Many of them also have BLM or SMN at level 0! Surely, it's a BRILLIANT idea to force them into inferior caster roles against their wishes!

Hooray for "good" game design!


Remember the saying: "If it's not broken, don't fix it."

You should, because in this case, SE thought it would be "wise" to "fix" a completely balanced class, and only ended up destroying it.

There's no "ifs" or "buts." The "Bard-" actually, no. Let's be honest here. This class is a Ranger, not a Bard. The Ranger is built from the ground up as a mobile run and gunner, not as a spell caster. It's been like that since 2.0, and it should stay like that even in 3.0 and beyond. That is a fact. If you actually know how to play Bards properly (aka have mastered it), this shouldn't even be put up for question.

Is it acceptable to add cast times to melee? No.
Is it acceptable to nerf casters to melee range? No.
So why should it be acceptable for Bards (and MCH) to have their only trump card, mobility, taken away from them, when there's already more than enough checks and balances in place back in 2.55 to even it out?

[Musashidon]

So why should it be acceptable for Bards (and MCH) to have their only trump card, mobility, taken away from them, when there's already more than enough checks and balances in place back in 2.55 to even it out?

your trump card is songs. not moving.

noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song.

[Dante_V]

I don't think the op is really a "realistic" way at all. Not necessarily a bad idea but if realistic is what you are going for then Bards wouldn't be moving at all while shooting. As someone who has shot many bow IRL I can tell you that you aren't going to be running around shooting arrows to any real effective or accurate degree. If they added realism to it then it would be more like WM damage 100% of the time with a 50% accuracy loss while moving. Arrows don't gain damage by standing still, the point of standing is for accuracy. You could argue that the increase in accuracy allows for a more critical arrow placement leading to more damage and I would agree however there would be a huge accuracy decrease while moving that would result in less damage overall.

[Dante_V]

Honestly for Bard I think they should have played more on ammunition for the damage increase. Different types of arrows with positive or negative aspect. (increased damage/shorter range) Stuff like that.

I do like the idea of charging the arrow for more damage. This would be good replication of an accurate critical hit thru aiming..

[Dante_V]

your trump card is songs. not moving.

noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song.

I agree with this. If you removed the utility of the songs and increased the damage no one would bring a bard as they could just bring another utility class or another melee that puts out even more damage. But I will admit that movement does provide SOME utility to the team such as being doing red/blue fire in t12. But this doesn't even come close to the song utility at all and honestly it can be done by any dps.

[Intellion]

your trump card is songs. not moving.

noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song.

No. I already went over this earlier.

Our trump card is our mobility. Songs are just a sidearm. At most, skilled Bards only use their songs around 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time, they are relying purely on their mobility and their fast attacks to perform well as a DPS class.

Songs are indeed nice, but what non-Bards don't realize is that they are also very situational in nature.

Mobility is our absolute trump card, and our one defining point as a class.

[Musashidon]

No. I already went over this earlier.

Our trump card is our mobility. Songs are just a sidearm. At most, Bards only use their songs around 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time, they are relying purely on their mobility and their fast attacks to perform well as a DPS class.

so wrong it's not funny. bards are taken because without them every other job would run out of tp/mp.

without bard the overall dps would drop abysmally.

all you went over is you have no idea how to play your own job.

[Yellow]

Bards in Final Fantasy have been a job that have low damage output due to the utility they can provide with their songs. I think as a DPS class in 14, the class needs to revolve around managing songs to improve your party while having enough output of DPS to be somewhat relevant in the party. The balance needs to be how much utility they provide in order to make up for their lack of damage.

I think that while Bard should be more on the utility side, Machinist should be more towards the DPS side with less party utility (perhaps more solo utility, situational improvements, etc).

Remember that this is a Final Fantasy game.. if you want a ranged DPS then perhaps you want a Hunter job, rather than Bard...