Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

[Intellion]

This is what i'm hoping the bards will understand, i totally support changes like the ones you are saying.

Please now follow me, i am no lvl 60 bard, i'm really stupid and all but take some time to really think about what i am going to say.
SE made a pretty clear choice with Gauss Barrel and Wanderer's Minuet and that is: "We don't want ranged physical classes being able to move everywhere, everytime in total freedom"

Why they made this choice? (The bomb is coming)

If you ever played another DPS other than bard in 2.0 you should have noticed that being a bard in AOE heavy fights was an easier job than being any other DPS in the same situation.
I think that is the reason, and i also think you'll not have your mobility back (and i agree with that)

Thats why i think Wanderer and Gauss could be reconsidered about many aspects but not about the mobility, that is totally cool from my point of view.

I don't think so.

If you actually knew how to play Bards properly post 2.0, especially around 2.5, you'd see that there was nothing "overpowered" about the class. Past 2.0, Bard was a completely balanced and fair class for what it was.

We could move and rapid fire simultaneously, and we had some nice utility songs, but the cost we had to pay was our damage, and to an extent, our durability. But we were fine with that, since mobility was and is still the defining name of this job, not raw damage.

Were AoE-heavy fights easier as a Bard in ARR? Not really. I had both BRD and NIN at 50 by 2.55, and didn't really notice any difference in difficulty between raid bosses. Sure, NIN had to come close and some AoEs were tricky to dodge at melee range, but there were also PLENTY of AoEs that were far harder to dodge at range, meaning that some attacks actually felt easier to dodge as NIN than BRD. Plus, casters and melee effortlessly pumped out much more DPS than us, and we just had to live with it. But at least we were mobile and very flexible. So in the end, everything balanced out perfectly well.

Want a living proof that Bards were balanced in 2.55? If mobility was so "OMG OVERPOWERED nerf pls", then how come a 4-Bard DPS party was undesirable or even considered asinine in places like Second Coil or Final Coil? Why were there even moments when a second Bard would be dismissed in those raids in exchange for a melee or caster?

Simple answer, really: because mobility is NOT overpowered, at least not after the post-2.0 nerfs that Bards already got.

So your claim that "Bards don't deserve mobility" because it's too "OP?" It doesn't hold up, because you literally just took away the only thing that made the class stand out. Since it's been proven that ALL classes have some sort of utility, you can't count that as a Bard exclusive. So in ARR, these are what defined the different DPS classes:

Melee: High-powered, instant melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered, instant ranged attacks. Mobile.

As you can see, it's a perfectly balanced "triangle" that sorts itself out.

In 3.0, this is now how DPS classes look like:

Melee: High-powered, insta-cast melee attacks. Mobile.
Casters: High-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.
Ranged: Low-powered ranged spells with casting times. Immobile.

Ranged DPS had their only defining point taken away unjustly, and have now effectively become inferior casters should they be forced to adopt Minuet/Gauss Barrel. Might as well play a caster.

But wait! Many Bards chose to roll as Ranged DPS and not as Casters when they first started pre-Heavensward! Many of them also have BLM or SMN at level 0! Surely, it's a BRILLIANT idea to force them into inferior caster roles against their wishes!

Hooray for "good" game design!


Remember the saying: "If it's not broken, don't fix it."

You should, because in this case, SE thought it would be "wise" to "fix" a completely balanced class, and only ended up destroying it.

There's no "ifs" or "buts." The "Bard-" actually, no. Let's be honest here. This class is a Ranger, not a Bard. The Ranger is built from the ground up as a mobile run and gunner, not as a spell caster. It's been like that since 2.0, and it should stay like that even in 3.0 and beyond. That is a fact. If you actually know how to play Bards properly (aka have mastered it), this shouldn't even be put up for question.

Is it acceptable to add cast times to melee? No.
Is it acceptable to nerf casters to melee range? No.
So why should it be acceptable for Bards (and MCH) to have their only trump card, mobility, taken away from them, when there's already more than enough checks and balances in place back in 2.55 to even it out?

[Musashidon]

So why should it be acceptable for Bards (and MCH) to have their only trump card, mobility, taken away from them, when there's already more than enough checks and balances in place back in 2.55 to even it out?

your trump card is songs. not moving.

noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song.

[Dante_V]

your trump card is songs. not moving.

noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song.

I agree with this. If you removed the utility of the songs and increased the damage no one would bring a bard as they could just bring another utility class or another melee that puts out even more damage. But I will admit that movement does provide SOME utility to the team such as being doing red/blue fire in t12. But this doesn't even come close to the song utility at all and honestly it can be done by any dps.

[Intellion]

your trump card is songs. not moving.

noone has ever said hey i wanna static with a bard cause they can run and shoot. they take them for tp/mp song.

No. I already went over this earlier.

Our trump card is our mobility. Songs are just a sidearm. At most, skilled Bards only use their songs around 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time, they are relying purely on their mobility and their fast attacks to perform well as a DPS class.

Songs are indeed nice, but what non-Bards don't realize is that they are also very situational in nature.

Mobility is our absolute trump card, and our one defining point as a class.

[Musashidon]

No. I already went over this earlier.

Our trump card is our mobility. Songs are just a sidearm. At most, Bards only use their songs around 10% of the time. The other 90% of the time, they are relying purely on their mobility and their fast attacks to perform well as a DPS class.

so wrong it's not funny. bards are taken because without them every other job would run out of tp/mp.

without bard the overall dps would drop abysmally.

all you went over is you have no idea how to play your own job.

[Intellion]

so wrong it's not funny. bards are taken because without them every other job would run out of tp/mp.

without bard the overall dps would drop abysmally.

all you went over is you have no idea how to play your own job.

No. All you've shown is that you have no clue how to actually play Bards and don't know what the hell you are talking about, yet you are snarkily commenting on a Bard feedback thread like this one.

Even in hardcore raids like coils, Bards are only asked to turn on their TP/MP songs when absolutely needed. After enough TP or MP is recovered, we are immediately asked to shut them off.

Why? Because in the end, we still consume a DPS slot, and hence are expected to pump out DPS. If you knew how to play Bards you'd also know that songs severely damage our DPS. But I guess you wouldn't. A Lv 24 Archer wouldn't have access to songs yet, after all.

With our low damage, how do we pump out the required DPS? By utilizing our trump card... mobility and rapid oGCD/proc weaving! Gasp! Who knew?!

As I keep saying, songs are undoubtedly useful, but it's just our sidearm.

It sure as hell weren't songs that helped me meet the tight DPS checks required on EX primals and Final Coil bosses when I cleared them as a Bard.

Once again, another PSA to non-Bards:

Please refrain from snarky comments unless you actually know enough about how to properly play the job well.

[Musashidon]

Please refrain from snarky comments unless you actually know enough about how to properly play the job well.

what you don't get is your dps doesn't matter your boost to the other dps do.

like i said learn you job.

it doesn't matter if i am a bard or not why? because your taken as a mp/tp potion nothing else.

snip

mobility has nothing to do with it.

you could be up close melee or long cast bards.

you are not brought for mobility at all.

The boost we do to other dps? You mean the one song we have that affects only a third of the entire DPS cast? One that only lasts so long because of a finite pool of resource used for the song?

This guy is for real, lmao.

let's see you beat a raid without a bard when your tank/melee dps are out of tp and your healers are out of mp, and you are doing zero damage and dying because noone is getting heals.

[Lewtskie]

what you don't get is your dps doesn't matter your boost to the other dps do.

like i said learn you job.

it doesn't matter if i am a bard or not why? because your taken as a mp/tp potion nothing else.

The boost we do to other dps? You mean the one song we have that affects only a third of the entire DPS cast? One that only lasts so long because of a finite pool of resource used for the song?

This guy is for real, lmao.

And way to entirely miss what I said. But of course, you chose to ignore that, since it was an actual point that you couldn't contest.

This is just taking the piss.

let's see you beat a raid without a bard when your tank/melee dps are out of tp and your healers are out of mp, and you are doing zero damage and dying because noone is getting heals.

NAH MAN, you said it yourself that only the boost we do to other DPS do is what matters. Don't backpedal.

[Intellion]

what you don't get is your dps doesn't matter your boost to the other dps do.

like i said learn you job.

it doesn't matter if i am a bard or not why? because your taken as a mp/tp potion nothing else.



mobility has nothing to do with it.

you could be up close melee or long cast bards.

you are not brought for mobility at all.

No. Just, no.

You have proven that you have no idea what you're saying.

We are only taken as "MP/TP pots?"

Wrong.

We are taken as a DPS class to fill in a DPS slot to pump out DPS like the other three DPS slots. Songs are just there as a safety measure. Sometimes, parties even rely on our mobility to handle mechanics while maintaining DPS.

I don't need to "learn" my job, because I have mastered it already.

Perhaps you should learn not to comment stupid things on subjects you know nothing about.

And why not level Bard to 60, or something? Then take it to raids. Might teach you a thing or two.

I just find it asinine that non-Bards who have never played or mained the class are going into Bard feedback threads, acting all high-and-mighty, and insulting actual Bards when they don't even have a single clue about the job they're criticizing.

[Snugglebutt]

-snip-

Stop posting in a thread about a class you clearly have no clue about.

I find it interesting the most verbal opponents yet most ignorant of the class in these threads tends to mostly come from people who claim to know the class despite not even having a capped bard themselves. The amount of fear mongering about possible changes by those of other classes stinks of wanting to screw over this class or machinist to make themselves look better in group composition or plain old ignorance. Perhaps stick to threads you might have a better understanding of such as your own class ones instead of spouting nonsense in different class ones you have no experience playing in endgame content at capped level and fully unlocked/used skills.

Just because you have an opinion about something which potentially have little to no practical experience with and you on the outside looking in does not make that opinion worth much, the people SE need to listen to about the problems with bards and machinists are the players who actually do play them, have the practical experience of using them in high level content using all the skills themselves on the class itself and not other players of other classes just throwing in ignorant or fear mongering comments. I also dislike when a low level archer or bard thinks they know what it is like to play at capped level using skills they have yet to unlock, in the sense of them arguing with those bards who have spent a lot of time experiencing all the skills it has at the capped level in high end content. Practical experience with the class trumps theory crafting and generic opinions of other class players.

It is becoming very annoying when people who do not play a class come into threads talking about them as though they know the class when clearly they don't and I see this all the time whenever a class thread comes up other classes pop in and voice their opinion on it despite having no practical experience playing it themselves. The class discussion is better suited to those whom are both informed and experienced in using it. Why don't you start a bard, cap it and experience what it is like to play in endgame content using all the skills on that class...then come back and have a more insightful opinion on it. Not all bards who have such practical experience agree with each other but at least in those cases they are coming from a position of experience and first hand knowledge instead of random guess work, inexperienced assumption and mere outside theory crafting.