The Ninja Superthread

[Arkenne]

Duality conditions and priority relations between DE and AE

You've presented a good point. 'Tis true I commented Duality being exclusively reserved for AE, but till now for some reason didn't bother about mathing the rotation 90 seconds later to see how available it might be to AE. Specially since by then there is a lot of things happening that might imply the lose of your combo by disconects at some point.

Giving it a priority of AE > AC > DE depending the situation might be an answer closer to reality. Altho exclusively speaking of the opener... yep, AE.

[Aiurily]

that's basically the same 2.x opener, except with combining oGCDs to make room for DWAD and duality. i think it's fine yeah, dont think theres any other realistic way to fit those two skills in otherwise. you'll likely have to use fuma probably since you'll clip slightly with jug+mug

you should definitely do trick>kassatsu though, because if you weaponskill right after trick attack, it doesn't actually take effect (unless this was fixed).

[Ephier]

that's basically the same 2.x opener, except with combining oGCDs to make room for DWAD and duality. i think it's fine yeah, dont think theres any other realistic way to fit those two skills in otherwise. you'll likely have to use

you should definitely do trick>kassatsu though, because if you weaponskill right after trick attack, it doesn't actually take effect (unless this was fixed).

Correct. Everything takes a moment to "apply" on a target, this can be seen with SMNs fester not accounting for bio if you smack it too quickly.

[Dante_V]

I have been doing alternating from the opener in full rotations (DE, SF, MU, AE/AC)

AE > AC > AE > AC > AE > AC > AC
The effect is diminishing over time however so there comes a point where you have to do two rotations that end with AC. But I'm trying to line up the intervals so that I can some continuity between my damage cool downs and aeolian. Ie set it up so that I'm on an aeolian rotation when damage buffs are up for it.

For some reason I thought the armor crush clipped the time away if you reapplied but it doesn't so that is lovely.

[Allyrion]

After playing around at 60, I'm really happy with the changes.
Though I called the Enmity abilities redundant, I've actually grown to be glad to have both.

Ironically, compared to monks, though it seemed like we weren't getting much before, our rotation developed a lot more with Armor Crush.
It's a new rotation, and it's even more desynced than it was before.
But that's a good thing. It's very active and takes a lot more adaptation, but it's engaging and fun.

It's a bit funny to see so many other classes complaining about the changes, while NIN got away with what was thought to be underwhelming changes and nerfs.
Well, maybe some still feel so but I think we got very positive changes.

My only qualm might be that though there is a place for AE in rotation still, it's completely dropped if you have to face the target.
I know that usually doesn't happen, only solo-ing and stuff before they invented mobs that activate positionals from all sides.
Still, I'd think it would be better if Dancing Edge got the back positional and AE would more free.

I think it would feel a lot better since it's used less now, the times it does get used it should feel less restricted, just raw damage.
And Dancing Edge is always going to be used for its debuff, but if Aeolian Edge can't perform the damage its meant to then it's worthless.
Again, yea that's still doesn't apply to most scenarios but I think design wise it'd be better that way.


On Duality and Dream Within a Dream:

Well, I really thought Duality would be for a duration. Guess I'll eat my words now.
It's too bad but since it does get the combo potency of the skill, it's pretty awesome.

DWD is awesome.
300 off-gcd potency, pretty sure that's the strongest single target oGCD in the game.
The animation is lovely and over the top.
Too bad I hardly ever see the full thing. That really bugs me actually.
It doesn't feel like an animation that's made to be clipped, but it almost always is.


Speaking of single target, we seem to be quite strong there.
Not speaking of single target, I actually feel like we fell off in AoE.
I actually always liked our AoE and it was pretty strong if you did it right.
We didn't lose that, but everyone else gained much more AoE potential.
Not really a complaint but I'm pretty sure we went from the upper half (at least) to likely the last, just because nothing we gained affects our AoE.

Lastly, I wish Shade Shift worked on magic too.
But overall, I'm really happy playing NIN right now. The new rotation is a lot of fun.

Wonder if we should remake this thread for HW.

[VitalSuit]

So does everyone just keep using armor crush to keep Huton up or do they recast Huton every once in a while? Personally (I haven't really made a rotation yet just from playing) I'll use armor crush up to 3 times before I recast huton.

[Allyrion]

So does everyone just keep using armor crush to keep Huton up or do they recast Huton every once in a while? Personally (I haven't really made a rotation yet just from playing) I'll use armor crush up to 3 times before I recast huton.

You lose 40 potency using Armor Crush over Aeolian Edge.
But you lose 360 potency casting Huton instead of Raiton (240 if you use Fuma Shrunken).
More loss if your 3-mudra Huton eats into your GCD.

So I don't think it's ever worth it to favor recasting Huton over extending it with Armor Crush when you're actually fighting.
There are certain lulls in a fight where you recast it because there's nothing to attack and a full refresh might be more beneficial than waiting for a last second extension.

Armor Crush does enough damage (more than Dancing Edge, less than AE) with the added Huton extension to make it always worth using.
Not extending Huton would have to give you 6 extra Aeolian Edges to make up for one Fuma Shuriken you lose each time you refreshed manually.
But that's not possible, and it's much worse with Raiton.

[AzureZenorag13]

I'm only at lvl 56, -so I don't have Duality or DWD- so I know what I say wont hold much weight, but I like to refresh Huton with AC at 40 seconds, I notice at my level that I'm able to do so with out too many problems. My rotation goes like this, Huton as I run up to boss then SE>B4B>GS>IR>AE>Jug>Mut>Mug>SE>SF>SE>GS>AE>SE>Suiton>GS>TA>AE>Kassatsu>SE>Raiton>SF>SE>GS>AC>Mut. From there I refresh Mut, and SF as needed and AC at 40 secs. I Raiton when up, Suiton when TA is up, and Kassatsu Raiton when both available, and of course use Invigorate when appropriate. I use Huton as I'm running up to the boss because I don't expect the tank to wait around for me, so I learned to adapt my rotation.

[Arkenne]

Ohh, the NIN thread is alive again. Guess we have not much to complain about other than Mug and its life vamp properties, which I remembered by reading the skills again now in Heavensward (seriously, I totally forgot Mug can do that).

Where is DE??

I suppose that rotation is with a fellow NIN in DE duty or a WAR, right?

Im still at 57 because Im stubbornly lvling solely through MSQ, Hunting bill marks and Sidequests. But I can already see that Duality and DwD wont do much to change our rotations, specially because they clearly meant to enhance our already existing rotation.

Armor Crush is the core of our change and I gotta admit I feel it HARD when I lose this skill because of a level synch. Its amazing, to say the least. I know I said refreshing Huton is possible within a minimum of 18 seconds, but I suggest against. You'll feel hardpressed. So Im trying to keep it at 30 seconds as the "next-finisher-to-do".

Otherwise you also risk losing Huton because the boss went away at last moment and felt like doing flashy cool things... looking at you, Ravana ¬__¬

Or the mob died too quickly and next one was a tad too far away. Also there is a risk muscle memory will strike in and end up throwing a DE or AE instead by accident :|

[Venom]

So whats the news on skillspeed v crit v det on Ninja?