RIP Ninja

[Taranok]

So what is missing is kinda like a weapon skill that would interact with ninjutsu by, i dont know, maybe increasing the time of huton. They really should have made something like that, i agree.

The problem I noted by just thinking of what they're asking for is that such a system substantially complicates the Ninja rotation, as now you have to factor in trying to land specific points in the combo before activating specific mudra that specifically boost that attack. The Mudra system seems like it was never designed or intended to be used to boost the next weapon skill used in quite this fashion, and the overwhelming amount of new abilities the devs would need to account for in such an addition would border on the insane when you finally got down to it. Even if it was just 3 new abilities that augmented your next weapon strike because you didn't fire it, what would be the fundamental difference between that and activating a specific GCD that would do the same thing?

In a system that by design mutually competes with literally everything else in the same system, it's a lot of extra bloat that doesn't really add much flavor when you truly delve into what is being asked for, and complicates a class in a way that it doesn't need to be complicated. Hell, as much as I hate positionals, it'd make more sense to make specific mudras fire when doing a specific positional than to tack on more features to the mudra system that it really doesn't need. For instance, side-stabbing someone with aeolian edge? Congratulations, have a fireball to your face! Backstab with Shadow Fang? Icy feet or what have you! It would fundamentally add the same thing without adding more competition to a system that is innately designed to compete with itself without ultimately devolving the system into "We don't actually know what half these abilities do because only these ones are ever worth using." Much like Hyoton, an ability so little used that you probably had to look it up simply to know what it was. Its only crime is that literally everything else is vastly superior to it in every way, shape, and form, unless you specifically want the ability to root things. Hell, even the bunny rabbit is vastly superior, because it does a dance and a jig to calm you down after messing up another ability for any given reason.

[silentwindfr]

who have said flashy stuff?
add a skill with the same function will have no interest. and if they want to make us a support melee, ok, then do it well. use ninjutsu for do this, like add debuff that will give synergy to the group.

it was possible to make tons of stuff, want a few example?
- a ninjutsu that will the target with a debuff after deal damage, this debuff boost the people attacking the monster increasing them cast/skill speed.
- a ninjutsu skill that allows to gain effect similar to the elemental wheel. each element giving a boost to a type of elemental damage. suiton, boosting the next thunder spell casted on, hyoton increasing fire,...

you can even think at some buff for the ninja, like:
- a kage-bushin, but instead to protect the ninja, allows him to get the same effect than oath of sword for a short period.
- allows to cast a Short duration AoE huton, that increase speed of attack of the whole group in the area.

and even some that have function different than what we have so far:
- a ninjutsu that allows to switch place with a team member. can be exellent when the healer is target and for give him some room.
- a kage-bushin that can be cast on a party member only that will absorb one attack.
- a ninjutsu allowing us to be teleported behind the target of a team member.

i dunno, i'm sure, i'm not the only one that did think to different ninjutsu that have different function that can be added? but most important was maybe to add the ninjutsu as a part of the weaponskill system. make the two system work together, not against each other. my main grips against ninjutsu, is the shared CD of 20 second, we are the only jobs that can only use our symbolic skill every 20 second. a dragoon if he want can simply do him 3 jump in row, is stupid i know but it's still possible. why not have give the cd to each ninjutsu skill? like Raiton do have 20 second CD, etc... it will have give more flexibility to the ninja.
but more important it will be able to add ninjutsu skill with less cd, allowing them to be added into combo.

i dunno, i'm only trying to think what it's possible or not, this jobs have soo much potential and for now... it's clearly unexploited. because soo far, with positional, we aren't really different of the dragoon or monk... (depending of the number of skill with positional) the only difference is the mudra lag, every 20 seconds.

why play ninja over dragoon or monk? what we had soo far was 3 jobs with different gameplay, but with positional and the ninjutsu underused, we aren't different of the dragoon or monk. before it was, if you want an heavy positional class, you go with monk. a job with a bit of positional, you will go with dragoon. and if you want a jobs without positional, it was ninja. it was the difference between the 3. no?

[Viridiana]

we are the only jobs that can only use our symbolic skill every 20 second. a dragoon if he want can simply do him 3 jump in row, is stupid i know but it's still possible.

Huh? Now you're just making stuff up. Every single jump is longer than a 30 second CD. Even if you combine Jump, Spineshatter, and Dragonfire, that's 7 jumps in 2 minutes, which is pretty much exactly what we have with Kassatsu.

[Taranok]

who have said flashy stuff?
add a skill with the same function will have no interest. and if they want to make us a support melee, ok, then do it well. use ninjutsu for do this, like add debuff that will give synergy to the group.

You mean like a certain Ninjutsu that, when cast, let's us use an otherwise stealth-locked ability that increases damage received by 10% for the entire party?

it was possible to make tons of stuff, want a few example?
- a ninjutsu that will the target with a debuff after deal damage, this debuff boost the people attacking the monster increasing them cast/skill speed.
- a ninjutsu skill that allows to gain effect similar to the elemental wheel. each element giving a boost to a type of elemental damage. suiton, boosting the next thunder spell casted on, hyoton increasing fire,...

First dash, see above. Second dash, that's not really helping the class at all. All it will be is the devs adding a complicated mechanic that the players will min/max to hell and back reducing the mechanic to nothing even remotely useful. And who would ever cast Hyoton only to follow up with Katon? If it justs boosts fire damage that works from Black mages, see above same as the first dash.

you can even think at some buff for the ninja, like:
- a kage-bushin, but instead to protect the ninja, allows him to get the same effect than oath of sword for a short period.
- allows to cast a Short duration AoE huton, that increase speed of attack of the whole group in the area.

I can only imagine the rage from Monks who get Huton to increase their attack speed as they furiously try to click it off so that their rotations aren't completely broken at random by the Ninja. About the only class that genuinely wants faster cast/ability usage is the Black Mage. Sure, the devs could change this in the future, but added TP drain isn't fun.

Furthermore, the Ninja is not a tank, and it already has abilities for taking loose amounts of damage, such as the Dragoon's keen flurry or perfect dodge. For anything else, you're talking about a lot of mutually exclusive abilities that compete with each other and what already exists presently, adding bloat to a system that is not designed to handle it at all.

and even some that have function different than what we have so far:
- a ninjutsu that allows to switch place with a team member. can be exellent when the healer is target and for give him some room.
- a kage-bushin that can be cast on a party member only that will absorb one attack.
- a ninjutsu allowing us to be teleported behind the target of a team member.

We already have the third ability. It's called Shukuchi. Furthermore, see above. Everything you are asking will be mutually exclusive with what already exists. They'd be better served as individual abilities if we want to keep the system from being bloated or clunkier than it already is.

i dunno, i'm sure, i'm not the only one that did think to different ninjutsu that have different function that can be added? but most important was maybe to add the ninjutsu as a part of the weaponskill system. make the two system work together, not against each other. my main grips against ninjutsu, is the shared CD of 20 second, we are the only jobs that can only use our symbolic skill every 20 second. a dragoon if he want can simply do him 3 jump in row, is stupid i know but it's still possible. why not have give the cd to each ninjutsu skill? like Raiton do have 20 second CD, etc... it will have give more flexibility to the ninja.
but more important it will be able to add ninjutsu skill with less cd, allowing them to be added into combo.

This really isn't in question. I would like the system expanded in some capacity as well. But again, mutually exclusive. Why would I ever use, say, Heaven by itself on my next AE when it locks me out of using Raiton? If it were better, why would I use Raiton then? If it doesn't lock out Raiton, what is going to stop me from doing Heaven, GCD, Earth, GCD, Man, GCD, fire ninjutsu? What does that actually add to the class except a horribly bloated and clunky system?

i dunno, i'm only trying to think what it's possible or not, this jobs have soo much potential and for now... it's clearly unexploited. because soo far, with positional, we aren't really different of the dragoon or monk... (depending of the number of skill with positional) the only difference is the mudra lag, every 20 seconds.

why play ninja over dragoon or monk? what we had soo far was 3 jobs with different gameplay, but with positional and the ninjutsu underused, we aren't different of the dragoon or monk. before it was, if you want an heavy positional class, you go with monk. a job with a bit of positional, you will go with dragoon. and if you want a jobs without positional, it was ninja. it was the difference between the 3. no?

The problem is, half your ideas are bad, and the other half either already exist, or shouldn't be thrown into the ninjutsu system anyways because of how mutually exclusive it is. About the only thing here we agree on is that Ninja shouldn't have positionals. Every other idea is half-baked and you're not considering the rather heinous ramifications of them being added.

Remember, the ninjutsu system gives you 3 abilities per minute to use. One ability is absolutely the best right now in Trick Attack, probably the single largest group synergy buff in the entire game if only because the mana and TP restores nerf bard damage, and foe's requiem only helps a relatively small amount of classes compared to trick attack. The other ability is Raiton, and the third is Huton, the single most important self-buff in the ninjutsu tree. Unless Ninjutsu is heavily altered, you would need to add more abilities that can compete with those without also destroying those in the process. Huton is being removed because of a weapon skill that extends it, which is good, but Suiton and Raiton are still king. Due to how ninjutsu work, we can't add ability-specific cooldowns, and everything must still compete with those 3 or 2. We could add new abilities that augment our next attack, but Huton technically already does this, as well as Kassatsu, and Suiton especially, and if any option is made superior to another option already present, that new option will be used exclusively over the old one.

Exceptions would be other one-minute-long-or-longer abilities, but at what point do you overburden the ninja with excessively long ability rotations to make sure you use 6 different abilities once every 2 minutes on 20 second intervals or the like? At what point do you put too much on the class to the point where it's no longer fun, without completely changing the framework of the class itself?

Yes, the system is being underutilized, but what you're asking is for either even more under-utilized trash-tier abilities like Hyoton, or overly clunky class design that has no real logical flow to it. The devs could accomplish the same thing pretty much right now in the framework we have of Nin in heavensward by literally making Hyoton a 300 potency attack that also debuffs the target's resistance to Raiton by 20% for 35 seconds. At that point, you gain more potency by casting Raiton after it than you would by simply casting 2 Raitons, and you actually benefit from doing a Kassatsu Raiton after it in addition to the Raiton immediately after.

But a teleport ninjutsu? Why would I ever teleport with a Healer just to buy time when they gain aggro? Better question, how would I do this if I am constantly making sure Ninjutsu is constantly on cooldown to maximize DPS? If I am expected to run positionals as a ninja, how am I expected to intermix ninjutsu between attacks that also need to fire for specific abilities while still making sure they're also always on cooldown and that Hoton, Suiton, Raiton, or whatever new Ton ability is added is also firing on time? How am I expected to keep track of Suiton making Raiton stronger or Hyoton making Katon or black mage stuff better when I'm juggling so many other abilities?

What you're asking for sounds cool in concept, but is absolutely disastrous from a gameplay standpoint, and doesn't do anything to actually make the class better. It simply sounds cooler in concept. Again, the only point I truly agree with is that Ninja shouldn't have positionals simply so that there's a melee DPS class that does not care much at all about positionals, in contrast with one that moderately cares, and 1 that cares so much that to not run positionals completely cripples your DPS.

[Allyrion]

But do remember, a 4th mudra by itself, without altering anything about how mudras work right now, is adding seven new abilities to the class. The devs would be better served making a special mudra that, when combined with a very specific combo of mudra of N lengths long, would give the ninja some hyper-powerful buff or damage ability or something. That's something the devs could do that would be interesting and really feel awesome. But I digress.

I think a way to expand mudra without adding an extra would be making double tapping mudras into a ninjutsu. I know that basically removes the rabbit from 2-Mudra combinations, but I feel like we can gain a lot from that. I also agree that adding a 4th would be the wrong step because the ninjutsu might get super niche adding 7 combinations, and that's IF we don't get 4-Mudra combinations due to having 4. That would be horrible for lag.

I think double tapped mudra and maybe even 3-Mudra combinations with those might be the best way to expand ninjutsu as opposed to adding Mudra themselves.

I agree with the rest of your post.
Though I'm okay with positionals, I can understand being bothered by it when the class hasn't had any.
I think people should try it first though before being sure it'll kill the class.

Honestly, I don't particularly like the vast swings of meta involved in adding game-changing abilities at certain levels. To use BRD as an example, BRD after Wanderer's Minuet will be a fundamentally different job than before WM. If WM is a level 60 skill, that means every single non-60 instance will have BRDs playing fundamentally differently than they do at 60. That's not fun (imo), that's frustrating. I'm more happy to get nice toys to play with every few levels that give me more tools to use.

<3
I feel like the complaining that NIN isn't going to get changed is just going to make them wait till expansions to introduce new Jobs.
I want NIN to develop and get new stuff. But we are developing and, we're fairly new as well.
People may be used to expecting everyone getting the same treatment at expansions, but that's because you don't usually get a whole new class (Job) in a patch.
Change for the sake of change is bad.
There's a million things we can think of to develop NIN, but it has to be balanced in the context of the other Jobs as well and they added 3 new Jobs this expansion as well.
They can't just put in whatever cool idea comes up in their head for ninja.
It needs to sync with their class and they need to develop a cohesive design.

So I'm fine with some thoughtful new tools over rushed tacked on mechanics for the sake of equality.

why play ninja over dragoon or monk? what we had soo far was 3 jobs with different gameplay, but with positional and the ninjutsu underused, we aren't different of the dragoon or monk. before it was, if you want an heavy positional class, you go with monk. a job with a bit of positional, you will go with dragoon. and if you want a jobs without positional, it was ninja. it was the difference between the 3. no?

Underused? That's really surprising.
Ninjutsu is one of my favourite things about NIN and using it every 20 seconds is great. That's because I always considered the cooldown short for such a mechanic.
Though DRG gets Jumps on separate cooldowns, those cooldowns are very long.
Though, as Viridiana pointed out, it's the same amount that we get to use it, ours is spread much more evenly throughout the fight. I prefer that.

Though ninjutsu drew me to ninja, it was because it complimented it's actual melee skills.
The last thing I want is for ninjutsu to take over the class. It should still be an assassin, first and foremost by using its weaponskills.
The Ninjutsu add a special flavor to those assassin skills, but I don't want us to turn into Naruto ninjas (no hate or anything, but they're not real ninjas).
It should be a closer blend to the more real Ninja archetype (which is an assassin) and elemental myths that surround them.
We have that now and that's what makes the class so appealing, to me at least.

If it was just a normal assassin, I wouldn't like it. If the ninjutsu took over, I wouldn't like it either.
It sounds like you want the latter. They've done a good job of balancing the two sides and I do hope they continue to interact a little like Trick Attack and the new weaponskill that extends Fuuton.

[Warlyx]

why SE doesnt include Ninja weapon skills....<blade:Shun> <can i have it?> <yes, please>

[Nalien]

why SE doesnt include Ninja weapon skills....<blade:Shun> <can i have it?> <yes, please>

This looks pretty similar, doesn't it?

[Allyrion]

why SE doesnt include Ninja weapon skills....<blade:Shun> <can i have it?> <yes, please>

This looks pretty similar, doesn't it?

Hahah, you had to pick the one ability we're pretty much getting!
I'm pretty happy with how the ninja weaponskills look.
Very ninja-like.

[silentwindfr]

all i was throwing was idea like this, i'm not a developper ok? but i still feel it's possible to do more.
most of the idea wasn't think for be perfect balanced, just give some idea of what is possible. i don't say to turn the ninja into tank, but if they plan to make it a support melee, give him tool special for him.
an example:

you did think i was asking for the ninja to get sword oath of the paladin and becoming a tank (proof that you don't know well paladin) sword oath add to the auto attack another attack at 50 potency. for make simple it was more a short time boost of damage for the auto attack.
when i did talk of the short duration huton in aoe, it was because Astrologian will have the same skill, the Royal Road of Arrow card and scholar have it via Selene.

a lot of the other idea was some nice concept, some was based on mobility (like the telportation or the swap of position) or niche skill (the kage-bushing skill allowing to protect from one attack the teammate)
they are not perfect, but it's still nice mechanic that can bring interesting gameplay to a support role melee. support role are not always about give buff, it can too be debuff or skill with different function to support the group and cover some weakness.
but all of this was about, if they really go with the idea to make the ninja a melee support jobs.

other point, i don't say that ninjutsu must be the main part, but be an equal part. it's quite different, adding capacity of ninjutsu that can be added into combo will not make weaponskill less important, since mostly this ninjutsu skill can't be used without the weaponskill. it's more about make it part of the weaponskill, it don't means simply take out the other ninjutsu possibility, but enhance the ninjutsu for add this sort of mechanic.

but anyway, before think to add more complicate stuff, they will need to fix 1 major trouble.... mudra lag!

[Nalien]

Hahah, you had to pick the one ability we're pretty much getting!
I'm pretty happy with how the ninja weaponskills look.
Very ninja-like.

I'm curious as to what this still even does. We know we're getting something to combo off Gust Slash to extend Huton, but they showed two new combat skills in the trailer... I'd assume the very Ninja-y looking ability was Triple Attack, but one of these skills hasn't really been explained.