Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

[Skivvy]

Actually there wouldn't be a problem with playing MMO while time restrained.
The problem starts when people who play 10 hours a week expect the same outcome as people who play 50 hours a week.

I had actually typed up a massive post, then deleted it because I got lost on my point (lol), but that is one of the things I mentioned.

People need to have reasonable expectations of what they can accomplish in game based on the amount of time they are able to spend.

I personally do not do coil, at all. I work full time, and have a husband & toddler who eat up a good chunk of my time, and so it's just never worked out for me. I am 100% OK with that, but I still enjoy the things I have been able to do in game.

I think a big issue with this thread (and the others) is that a lot of people are unfairly labeling all "casual" players as being unskilled, lazy, and just wanting things handed to them on a silver platter, and that's just not true. I am assuming a lot of people will label me a casual since I don't do Coil, and that's fine. But as a casual player, I have almost all jobs & DoH/L at 50, I keep my main jobs fairly-well geared (playing a bit of catch-up now after an 8+ month break), and I do actually care about my performance for the fights that I am able to partake in. Despite what some people think, plenty of "casual" players do actually have quite a bit of skill.

Once people can stop claiming all casuals behave the same and only try to take the easy way out, perhaps the conversation on nerfs can actually become something worthwhile.

[Aureyo]

Pretty much strejda with the time restraints thing. Although I'm sure once Alexander comes out someone will complain about the hardest tier being too hard or "overtuned" and want it nerfed...

Oh and Skivvy, we'll do that when you concede the fact that all the jerks running around in DF with Dreadwyrm gear don't represent all of us "elitists" as you guys like to call us.

[Skivvy]

Pretty much strejda with the time restraints thing. Although I'm sure once Alexander comes out someone will complain about the hardest tier being too hard or "overtuned" and want it nerfed...

Oh and Skivvy, we'll do that when you concede the fact that all the jerks running around in DF with Dreadwyrm gear don't represent all of us "elitists" as you guys like to call us.

See, the issue is you are buying into stereotypes. That's never a good way to think, and definitely does not help a conversation.

I have never called a person an elitist due to their skill or how well-geared they are. An elitist is a prat who thinks they're better than everyone else, and will proceed to berate those they deem unfit. Very different things.

[RiceisNice]

...

I agree that the dungeons they keep adding on are faceroll, but that's usually not because of their design, but because of the fact we overgear it by the time it actually does come out. I mean if you actually did current expert dungeons in mythology gear with a zenith, it'd definitely be less of a breeze than doing it in full ironworks (augmented or not). But by the time that it did came out, we've already gotten a few pieces, if not an entire set, of unaugmented poetics and a Zodiac (125) to boot.

If we're looking at subs gained, it was during vanillia, sky rocketed during TBC, and maintenance during WotLK. As far as a subscription is concerned, maintaining is still pretty solid because you're keeping players (and the fact it didn't rise too much for catacylsm meaning players who were interested in the hype were already still playing WoW for WotLK). Catacylsm and esp MoP losing subs were more than just difficulty (because I can attest to cata heroics being much harder than wotlk heroics).

TBC and especially WotLK were in that "casual era". Extremes of both is bad. Vanilla was new, but it wasn't appealing to a lot of players because of how exclusive it was (just look at wildstar and their end game, it's more-or-less the same as vanllia with the player requirement and attunements). MoP had raid finder for end game instances, but I ended up being burned out anyway before they released the final wing on LFR and before finishing my legendary questline.

And now the problem with SoF? Some people have already mentioned it, it just seems like an unusually jump from other main scenario fights. The fight is already pretty demanding when we went in with 6 people (three whom are dps) who are in T13 progression. You'd need nigh perfect execution if the party was actually ilvl 90 or close (which would actually be the case for new players or people who are joining after 3.0 release)

And honestly, SoF should really feel like an exception to all this. It's not just any content, its content that's gating an entire expansion. I don't mind that main scenario or current dungeons be hard (infact I'd like it to an extension), but it's a really really shoddy time to start doing so in the context of MS always been stupidly faceroll (even in relevant level gear, i'm looking at you, levi HM) and the requirement for 3.0.

[Niwashi]

Actually there wouldn't be a problem with playing MMO while time restrained.
The problem starts when people who play 10 hours a week expect the same outcome as people who play 50 hours a week.

It's more a matter of expecting that someone who plays 10 hours a week should be able to reach the same point in 5 weeks that someone who plays 50 hours a week will get to in 1. But this is where the issue of having content start hard and be nerfed later kicks in, though. It relies on everyone who wants the challenging version being among the ones who have the time to get there first. Time and playstyle preferences don't match up that way.

If, on the other hand, they create both hard and easier versions and maintain both of them, regardless of whether players get to it the day it's released or a couple years later, then it's the players themselves getting to choose how they want to pursue that content. In terms of what's being developed, and even what needs to be done to earn the content's rewards, it's no different from the hard version early, nerfed version later pattern, except for disentangling that pattern from the timing of when the content is available.

I have high hopes for Alexander. At least it sounds as though it's going to be following the right pattern. I just hope it's done well.

[Magis]

I agree that the dungeons they keep adding on are faceroll, but that's usually not because of their design, but because of the fact we overgear it by the time it actually does come out. I mean if you actually did current expert dungeons in mythology gear with a zenith, it'd definitely be less of a breeze than doing it in full ironworks (augmented or not). But by the time that it did came out, we've already gotten a few pieces, if not an entire set, of unaugmented poetics and a Zodiac (125) to boot.

Even back in 2.0 content was speedrunned when we were in Darklight. Dungeon releases are always one patch behind in terms of gear level, so they can never be remotely difficult to a up to date player.

If we're looking at subs gained, it was during vanillia, sky rocketed during TBC, and maintenance during WotLK. As far as a subscription is concerned, maintaining is still pretty solid because you're keeping players (and the fact it didn't rise too much for catacylsm meaning players who were interested in the hype were already still playing WoW for WotLK). Catacylsm and esp MoP losing subs were more than just difficulty (because I can attest to cata heroics being much harder than wotlk heroics).

TBC and especially WotLK were in that "casual era". Extremes of both is bad. Vanilla was new, but it wasn't appealing to a lot of players because of how exclusive it was (just look at wildstar and their end game, it's more-or-less the same as vanllia with the player requirement and attunements). MoP had raid finder for end game instances, but I ended up being burned out anyway before they released the final wing on LFR and before finishing my legendary questline.

I don't see how TBC was in "the casual era". Maybe once Sunwell dropped (which did away with attunements and the like), but Black Temple and before were not considered easy instances which still had to be attuned to. Also these things don't happen overnight. I remember in TBC people complaining about the direction the game was going back then when Sunwell dropped.

And now the problem with SoF? Some people have already mentioned it, it just seems like an unusually jump from other main scenario fights. The fight is already pretty demanding when we went in with 6 people (three whom are dps) who are in T13 progression. You'd need nigh perfect execution if the party was actually ilvl 90 or close (which would actually be the case for new players or people who are joining after 3.0 release)

And honestly, SoF should really feel like an exception to all this. It's not just any content, its content that's gating an entire expansion. I don't mind that main scenario or current dungeons be hard (infact I'd like it to an extension), but it's a really really shoddy time to start doing so in the context of MS always been stupidly faceroll (even in relevant level gear, i'm looking at you, levi HM) and the requirement for 3.0.

The problem is that the main scenario has dug itself so deep with lack of difficulty that anything even remotely difficult now is considered "a jump". The mechanics of SoF are not hard. Someone shoots the cannons, someone shoots the Dragon Killer, use snares after the first DK. The rest is just kill adds and keeping DPS up on the boss. It even uses monsters and mechanics already taught to you in Stone Vigil, while having an NPC tell you what to do. SE designed it to teach players as they went along. Previous encounters have been so brain dead that you didn't have to think or communicate. So when just assigning people to roles is added in, it's all of a sudden this "difficult" instance.

[RiceisNice]

...

Even with sunwell being out, their subscriptions still rised over time (sunwell being introduced Mid 2008 and numbers still rising from that point). and kept rising into WotLK. If people were complaining about that, then either they raked in a lot more subscribers than they lost, had a very weak conviction (playing regardless of disliking the change), or changed their minds about it after playing it for a bit.

Difficulty (something being hard or not) is subjective; That's why I didn't even mention "difficulty" when it came to SoF. Sure you have an NPC teling you what to do, the same NPC told me that my auto attacks would succeed us very little against Vishap (when you actually needed to deal about 50% or more of his hp assuming you hit him with all the DKs and the barrels). And go back to my previous post, maybe they should start doing that sort of main scenario fight then, but doing it at the end of the game and making it required for 3.0 is still a pretty bad move as far as trying to scale up the difficulty is concerned. The point remains that there was really no ramp up of communication required in the main scenario fights, and the end result is something so different that you'd realistically could not expect your typical DF to succeed (much like T5 and T9).

People, keep saying it's not hard, and I'd agree it's not as difficult or can be done easily, but only because I moved in with 6 other people who I can trust. Even basic communication aside, you can get players who refuse to talk, don't listen, or outright troll. PFing varies from servers, I never see a PF fill up on my server and they end up DFing the last 2-4 slots. Combine that with having one or two players in SoF being deficent can give you a hell of a time. I personally have no incentive to do the fight again unless its my trial roulette (and I don't even need soldieries so thats moot), and some people on my realm won't even bother helping unless they're selling it as a run.

[Mythrella]

Uhh.....

uhhhhh....


Did you... play Vanilla WoW? Molten Core? Black Wing Lair? AQ40? NAXX???????

*chart n stuff*

*Raises hand*

I was a big WC3 fan. My WC3 lan party friends got me to play Classic WoW. TBH most of us stopped caring about WoW after we killed Arthas in ICC. None of us gave a care about Deathwing Who and kung-fu pandas. We're not alone.

WoW fell in the toilet for many reasons, not just the casualization (this a word?) of content. They do have hard mode dungeons and raids for the few willing to actually do them, just like here though players choose to ignore the hardmodes and then complain about how easy everything is. Leveling and questing was nerfed into afk auto-attack mode when WotLK released.

I have no doubt that Yoshi-P knows this. He's a gamer, he played WoW and other MMOs. For me he has so far shown through his own game that he knows many of the things that worked well for Blizzard et.al. and many of the things that didn't, and tied it to a FF world. He's also a businessman that knows he shouldn't be gating players in old content if he wants to sell his new content.

They nerfed one trial in story mode of a game that offers plenty of content for hardcore, mediumcore, and casual players, one month before the expansion because players would not stick around to maintain a full party. This does not mean the entirety of FFXIV is now being catered to bad players, casuals, monkeys on a typewriter, or whatever the dramaqueens claim about the sky falling. It means he wants the abandoned souls to finish the required story for Heavensward. That’s it. It’s not like he nerfed everything at the end of the xpack ala Blizzard, or we’d all be 3manning Coil while the rest of the raid is afk. I remember what a joke Arthas became at the end xd

[Magis]

Snip

The reason people are not help with SoF in trials is not due to failure. You can still fail on Titan or w.e. The reason is a lack of instance reset which drags unwinnable fights longer than needed. That was all that was needed to "fix" SoF.


You mention there was no "ramp up", but you need to start somewhere. This was the easiest way to introduce communication... roles assigned at the start, and everyone then works in their separate silos. The DK doesn't have to care what the cannoneers are doing. The snares don't have to care what the DK is doing. After roles are applied, as long as you do yours, you are good to go.

*Raises hand*

I was a big WC3 fan. My WC3 lan party friends got me to play Classic WoW. TBH most of us stopped caring about WoW after we killed Arthas in ICC. None of us gave a care about Deathwing Who and kung-fu pandas. We're not alone.

WoW fell in the toilet for many reasons, not just the casualization (this a word?) of content. They do have hard mode dungeons and raids for the few willing to actually do them, just like here though players choose to ignore the hardmodes and then complain about how easy everything is. Leveling and questing was nerfed into afk auto-attack mode when WotLK released.

I have no doubt that Yoshi-P knows this. He's a gamer, he played WoW and other MMOs. For me he has so far shown through his own game that he knows many of the things that worked well for Blizzard et.al. and many of the things that didn't, and tied it to a FF world. He's also a businessman that knows he shouldn't be gating players in old content if he wants to sell his new content.

They nerfed one trial in story mode of a game that offers plenty of content for hardcore, mediumcore, and casual players, one month before the expansion because players would not stick around to maintain a full party. This does not mean the entirety of FFXIV is now being catered to bad players, casuals, monkeys on a typewriter, or whatever the dramaqueens claim about the sky falling. It means he wants the abandoned souls to finish the required story for Heavensward. That’s it. It’s not like he nerfed everything at the end of the xpack ala Blizzard, or we’d all be 3manning Coil while the rest of the raid is afk. I remember what a joke Arthas became at the end xd

I was mainly attributing it to difficulty due to the original topic being about content difficulty, but that was a piece of the large puzzle. A lot of bad decisions were made, in general changing WoW from the classic MMO it was (a virtual world to interact in and adventure) into a content delivery system. No longer did you run around the open world, you instantly teleport here and there, flying over any challenge to your destination. Difficulty was another thing that took a hit in the name of delivering as much content as possible. I touched on this when I mentioned vanilla was sandboxy while later ones became themepark. Anyway, that is another topic for whenever another "expand the openworld post appears". Also you mention a single trial, though that isn't the case. Coil was designated for raiders and placed in the "hardcore" category, yet saw huge nerfs in mechanics. T6 can be utterly ignore, T7 had all it's teeth pulled, etc. So I wonder, with the normal/savage Alexander split, will we see nerfs to Savage?

[RiceisNice]

...

Yet the fails are going to happen anyway even if there was a reset button, and people are going to quit anyway. It's half and half, one just exasperates the problem more than it is. And as simple as communication is, you're still going to get those individuals that either don't listen or have the intent to troll, and having just two of those is enough to drag the entire party down. It's not as a straight forward as "no one wants to listen, ever", which people seem to be making out when they're against nerfs or people who wants nerfs. MAybe there's place this sort of thing in coil, but not main scenario (which again, is gating the expansion)

Right, and I still disagree that putting it in a way where it's gating an entire expansion would be the "wrong time to ramp it up". Maybe the very first main scenario fight in 3.0 perhaps?