Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

[Nalien]

And guess what? It is cheaper to develop.

You say that, but I'm fairly sure SE just took an extra cost adjusting Steps of Faith... A much bigger one that was needed, too, considering all Steps needed was its rewards to actually be worth the time investment.

We are in the age of Call of Duty and Bubble Witch Saga. You would be surprised by how many people actually like "mindlessly simplistic" stuff.

There are these things called genres... Or do you really think SE is trying to appeal to the mobile app demographic with Final Fantasy XIV...

When I did Steps of Faith it was a instance that was pretty damn well crafted. It wasn't hard by any stretch, it just required a bit of communication, but even if everything went right it was still a tight fight with failure always being a possibility. That added to the dramatic tension of the encounter and overall enriched the story. Now Vishap is effectively just a giant FATE boss to be zerged down with the rest with very little chance of failure.

I'm all for relaxing stuff, that's why I like Triple Triad and Fishing. I'd much rather the story be dramatic and the story encounters enhance that, though. There is a place for relaxing content, epic fights with building-sized dragons probably isn't it.

Why not do it, if you were running a business?

Standards, mostly. That's why, even though I'm not particularly fond of the Souls franchise, I have a great deal of respect for its developers. They found their niche and they do their best to appeal to it. Wish more developers would do that, rather than shamelessly trying to appeal to as many niches as possible and just diluting their product as a result. Though Final Fantasy XIV has probably fared better than most in that regard (which is why I'm here).

[TAS]

Also, I've talked to an online friend experienced in mmos who tried the trial but didn't want to continue because everything was a snoozefest to him. I felt that his various complaints were legitimate and I felt like it was hard for me to tell him that it gets 'better' because as the game grows older, the tall trees just keep getting cut down and the distance he has to travel to get to the forest just keeps increasing and I'm not even sure if it'll be worth it for him. It feels really conflicting to me that I've played a game for this long but can't honestly recommend it to anyone since I've been able to experience most of the content at its prime and anyone I made to try the game will just experience the double diluted version (insane ilvl jumps + echoes + nerfs).

That's one of my points. I know plenty of new players that would have really enjoyed the difficulty that Coil presented pre nerf, but they don't make it that far because they lose interest before catching up. IF you can obtain +i110 gear, which isn't hard to do, topped off with %20 echo, which no one is going to want to take off (I tried once as a joke and got booted, because I said I already cleared and I didnt need it... go figure...) it just becomes regular content with no special challenge. And what's worst is that out of 13 turns, you technically only need to do three of them now, making the other ten completely obsolete. What's the point of having progression content if you don't have to do all the turns to actually progress. They've even done the same with extremes. At the very least you should beat the previous ex primal before moving on to the next.

Endgame should be more than just eye candy and a means to obtain glamour gear, which unfortunately has become the case with coil.

People who do enjoy difficult/challenging content deserve variety, just like people who prefer to play casually (and there are new players who come into the game that like to be challenged as well). Not just rehashed content slapped with a (Savage title) with no real rewards other then "bragging rights" (who cares) or content that only last for 2 months before gradually getting nerfed to the point where it just becomes another Battle on the Bridge, Dragon's Neck, or a lvl 50 dungeon boss fight...

[Remilia_Nightfall]

You say that, but I'm fairly sure SE just took an extra cost adjusting Steps of Faith...

Indeed. They had to patch something that was apparently too hard. Maybe next time they will make it easier in the first place. Unfortunate, I know.

There are these things called genres... Or do you really think SE is trying to appeal to the mobile app demographic with Final Fantasy XIV...

Not necessarily, but I am sure you get what I mean. The age of DAoC or UO is gone. WoW created a new genre tbh, a "new way of experiencing MMOs", and if you want to join the market at this point in time you, as a developer / publisher, cannot disregard that.

Standards, mostly. That's why, even though I'm not particularly fond of the Souls franchise, I have a great deal of respect for its developers.

I am a huge fan of Souls games. I know that challenges are what make a game (or anything in life, really) enjoyable and satisfying. Still, we must face the truth that the majority of people do not like that.

[Nalien]

Indeed. They had to patch something that was apparently too hard. Maybe next time they will make it easier in the first place. Unfortunate, I know.

That wasn't the issue with Steps though. The issue was that people left because it simply wasn't worth the time investment for what you'd get out of it. Anyone who didn't already have it cleared had to deal with constant disbands because of this. That was the issue.

All they needed to do was address the issue with rewards and perhaps make certain aspects of it more forgiving. People would have stayed, gladly depending on how much better the rewards were, it could have been slightly easier and everyone would get their clear while still experiencing the original fight. Instead they just completely idiot proofed it. People will still stay, sure, it's almost impossible to fail now, but the fight has completely lost its soul IMO.

Steps really just comes off as something that was ill planned at this point. The fight was great and I really enjoyed it, but they gated Heavensward behind it. They ended up coming close to Heavensward with people still not beating it, despite the fact that I'm sure something like the Chrysalis would have had a similar completion curve (actually I helped a friend catch up before Steps was nerfed, just me and two other people, we wiped more to Chrysalis than Steps...). That timing forced them to drastically nerf it to keep Heavensward accessible. A smart developer probably wouldn't have built an expansion with all the content gated behind the story so that all their subscribers didn't feel the need to madly rush the story...

[Goodberry]

...snip...

I know I am stereotyping, but where there is an annoyance there is also someone annoyed (in this case, me). As I don't have either the time (I can play just some hours on weekends) , the age or (any more) the reflexes "optimal" for what the likes of you deem a "good" player, I have been stereotyped AND insulted (in games) for some years now. I'm simply fed up with that. Just play your "challenging" content and let the likes of me have our "unchallenging" one. WHAT THE HECK, AT LEAST THE MAIN STORY THAT'S MANDATORY to continue playing the game. We're not asking for the Moon.

What's intolerable, for me, is that players like you will have surely beaten Steps of Faith on first day (I did myself, so I am advocating other people's cause here) and probably will never do it any more (I sure won't - what would be the point in repeating a fight that manages to be both dull and chaotic, with no rewards?), but still you'd want less "lucky" players continue to be gated behind it!

[RedAntares]

The nerf to Steps of Faith wasn't needed. All that was needed was actual communication between the 8 members.
Honestly. It really wasn't that hard. I know I failed a couple times in the beginning but the DF group I was with kept trying, and eventually won.

I guess everyone wants a easy game.

It's not that, I didn't found that duty hard at all either, but it seems that the problem was that no one wanted to work together, or spend 5min explaning the fight to new comers, which makes me wonder why these people play an MMO at all.

The nerfs to Steps of Faith where done in order to reduce the failure rate so veteran players won't mind helping people new to the instance, or at least that how I see it. :P

It's also normal to nerf old content in order to help new players catch up, specially when a new expansion is about to come out and the old content is required to unlock the new stuff.

[Rendecrow]

The really stupid thing here is that the changes won't make much difference. People wiped on SoF because idiots refused to engage with the mechanics of the fight. You still need to use those mechanics post-nerf so those same idiots will keep wiping.

From what I have heard the changes allow groups to use one less DK, kill adds faster, and kill the boss faster. How does that not make a difference? O.o I've yet to see any forum posts about it still being to hard, so clearly a difference has been made.

The sad thing about all this is that we're not allowed to have any challenging story encounters because bad players might cry. It was ridiculous how easy Lahabrea and Nabriales were to defeat; they didn't feel like major story bosses at all. That's why a lot of us were pleased with SoF since it actually felt like a struggle and those ending cutscenes after were a fantastic reward. Why must bad players insist that everyone stoop to their level to get things done? Surely it makes more sense for them to learn to play? Nerfing content so they can pass like this is only going to cause them to get stuck on something else...

Two things:

1. It's story quest, get over it. Want challenging? Go do Coils or something else.

2. How do you think it would effect SE's revenue in a month when a large part of the playerbase can't pass that trial and go into the expansion? Seriously.... Do you guys not think about these things?

[Hyrist]

I speak for myself mostly, but I would really like to see an element of challenge every time a new patch is introduced. Making a dungeon longer is not a challenge though. Maybe with the new skills, more interesting mechanics could come into play. Who knows?

You don't have "Scent of a Woman" Achievement. Even if you've outgeared it stat wise Savage Coil 9 should still provide a strong challenge for you and yours. Please return to the conversation when you've completed ALL content designed to challenge members if youre going to argue challenges.

Unless what you're arguing for is more prestige, in which case you're out of luck. FFXIV isn't about Ego padding.

[Maero]

"Casual" and "Hardcore" are hard to define.

The generally accepted definition is the following:

Casuals don't raid endgame content in a static. As a consequence they rely on nerfs and/or carries to clear what otherwise it would be impossible for them.

I disagree, sorry
Casual can also mean those who actually work for a living and don't spend all days of the week playing FFXIV and raiding.
Our FC can be considered casual, but we do raid twice a week we just do not have the time that others have.
I would not 100% say that "hardcore" are those who have completed coil and such before nerfs, most likely they just have had more time on their hands.
Nerfs on the other hand only happen because of those that want gear and such but do not bother learning fights. Like this recent sof nerf, the very first day of patch that it was introduced people were complaining on the difficulty when it actually is not hard at all. Ak was nerfed like what 3 times because of such players and Quarn and other dungeons as well. It is sad to be honest.

[Dragoon4life]

Money DUH! Stuff gets nerfed, because they want players to keep playing. More playing = Money. as far as challenge the stuff that's supposed to be hard is still hard. EX Primals and Coils. there's still a ton stuck on Turn 5 and don't get me started on how many are stuck on T9. those that need the nerf aren't hurting high end game raiding. like all MMOs there a business. more players = more money = a healthy game = which leads into new content.