Revelations from Patch 2.55 [SPOILERS]

[Vydos]

This topic went from being awesome to cringy now to be honest.

What became a friendly exchange of ideas and theories became a war between two sides with torches and pitchforks.

Let's at least try to agree on some things here.

- The story in itself isn't bad. But there's clearly room for improvement to how they handled it.
Taking the entire weapon discussion. This is a point that could be avoided by a guard stopping us and asking to leave our weapon behind. (But then again, you'll have people screaming that their character would never do that *rolls eyes*)

- Try to also look things from the perspective of the game developers. As a mmorpg, the creators can only do so much with our character. And I enjoyed what they did in this patch. Yes, we didn't do much. But at the same time we did as much as we could(from a game dev view)

- All other opinions about how we should have acted and any reasons to it. Are completely void. And is something that is only linked to each individuals upbringing. When that scene happened, I felt like it suited my character. Other people prefer the action type/anime-esque type of scenario where you beat the shit out of everyone. It's all personal taste. And something S-E can't accomodate. In worst case scenario, use your IMAGINATION to fill the gaps.

- A final personal opinion that I shared a few times in this topic. I still firmly believe that the entire Nanamo's death was done very sloppy. "I need to know you'll be there for Raubahn in the upcoming hard times that I won't divulge. You will be?! Jolly! Now let me randomly take this PERFECT moment to grab my glass, twirl it around and take a sip of it" *boom death*... I don't know why, but that scene is the only reason why I have a hard time believing that Nanamo didn't know there was poison in it...I might be reading too deeply into things.

[Mimiru_S]

I don't know why, but that scene is the only reason why I have a hard time believing that Nanamo didn't know there was poison in it...I might be reading too deeply into things.

I agree.. Always thought it was odd that she wanted us (Warrior of Light) to be there, so she could tell us something that she was going to repeat in five minutes, to everyone in the banquet hall. Even if it was an innocent exchange, you'd figure she'd want Minfillia there instead, or at least with us, since she's the head of the Scions. Dont really want to believe that Nanamo was setting us up, too, but things just look that way. Praying and asking forgiveness for something she's about to do.. Wanting us to be there, in private.. Glancing at her goblet a few times, like she knew what was about to happen.

I'm sure i'm reading too much into it, but what better way to unite your entire city, than against a "Fallen Hero" assassinating you?

[Anonymoose]

What became a friendly exchange of ideas and theories became a war between two sides with torches and pitchforks.

I agree that it's slowly but steadily been heading down that road. Since this subforum was established, it's been of a considerably higher standard in terms of class. We've disagreed, we've debated, and in the heat of a passionate discussion, we've been snarky and dismissive, but we should continue to draw the line at flat out disrespect, no? Tearing down positions and arguments is part of the analytical process. Tearing down people is ugly.

Keep that shite in General.

"I need to know you'll be there for Raubahn in the upcoming hard times that I won't divulge. You will be?! Jolly! Now let me randomly take this PERFECT moment to grab my glass, twirl it around and take a sip of it" *boom death*... I don't know why, but that scene is the only reason why I have a hard time believing that Nanamo didn't know there was poison in it...

Always thought it was odd that she wanted us (Warrior of Light) to be there, so she could tell us something that she was going to repeat in five minutes, to everyone in the banquet hall. <...> Dont really want to believe that Nanamo was setting us up, too, but things just look that way. Praying and asking forgiveness for something she's about to do.. <...> what better way to unite your entire city, than against a "Fallen Hero" assassinating you?

If Nanamo didn't know this was coming (always going to bold the IF since there's hints this is headed in several directions at once), a chunk of this is still easy enough to explain if you remember that Nanamo is a sheltered twenty year old stifled by isolation and manipulation aside from Raubahn. She's essentially an idealistic teenager.

Praying to the Sultantree
I don't think she necessarily needs to be about to screw over everyone she knows to beg forgiveness from the hallowed spirit of the Ul line, she just needs to feel guilt and powerlessness. The first time we meet her, as Lady Lilira, she slips her guard and runs unprotected into Thanalan (ignoring various factions out to get her) just so she can apologize to the tree for someone stealing her crown from the Sultansworn. I think she just does it whenever she feels that she's failed to live up to her own idealistic expectations of herself and how she should empower her people. If the Line of Ul derives its glory from centuries of successful monarchy rule, she probably feels crushing guilt that the only way to reconcile her responsibility to the people as the current Ul monarch is to sever the line entirely. Wouldn't you want forgiveness from your ancestors if you extinguished their legacy to uphold what you believed to be their values? At twenty?

Requesting the Warrior of Light
I know there's plenty of ways to read the scene, but my first impression was that she just didn't have the strength to go through with it. She's relied on Raubahn for nearly all of her strength, and now she's about to circumvent him. He'd have tried to talk her out of this - he'd have said not to put it on herself, not to throw the city into chaos, not to snuff out the Line of Ul, to let him keep eroding away at the Monetarists. By dissolving the Monarchy, she was essentially saying that Raubahn wasn't good enough - that he'd failed in his promise to her. I felt like she was looking at hurting Raubahn, ending her family name, and throwing the city into chaos, and at the same time she knew she had to, she didn't want to and didn't think she could. So, she put it out there to Kan-E and Merlwyb - two city-states of support and pressure on herself to not back out. Then, she told the Hero of Eorzea. I felt like she was deriving strength from the player; what could she have to fear for Ul'dah's future if the Warrior of Light had her back? Everything would be okay and her sacrifice wouldn't be in vain - someone who makes the impossible possible promised. She even says that she was filled with dread up until that moment, and moves to chug some liquid courage as if her next action was to slam the goblet down and head down to the feast to burn some bridges.

The Scene is Suspicious, but...
I agree that, by then, many of us had figured out that SE was at least going to go through with the death scene (regardless of whether they intended to reverse it later). I agree that it looks wonky from that perspective, as well. It's possible that she could have known what was going to happen and planned this to some degree, but it's just as possible that she knew she was about to be taken out and was so filled with hoplessness that she just let it happen, entrusting the future to Raubahn and the Warrior of Light. For all we know, she let herself be taken out because that was her way of dissolving the monarchy. The main reason I'm tempted to discard a lot of that is just that she flat out told the Warrior of Light her plans for five minutes from then. "Raubahn will need help without me," looks a lot less like "I'm planning something... Goodbye," when followed up with, "Let's go downstairs and let this cat out of the bag."

What looks to one person like a clumsy scene looks to another like she has ulterior motives, and to another like SE is laying it on thick because you already know it's coming. It all depends on how much you factor into the equation the fact that you, as a limited-omniscient viewer on the other side of a computer monitor, have seen enough to know what's coming.

[Vydos]

*snip*

Thank you for your input Moose. This widened my perspective on viewing the scene and how it could be interpreted.
And you strike a good point. I can see someone like Nanamo, who indeed lived a sheltered life, simply seek a shoulder to support on. Considering Raubahn's large shoulder seat couldn't be used. (small play of words lol)

Which like you said, does give a person a reason to take a sip of their glass. The sense of relief leading to giving a person their sense of appetite back.

I guess, I'll have to wait and see in a few months what it will end up being. And which direction S-E will take with the story. Yoshida did admit that he loves Game of Thrones and that FFXIV story is a dark fantasy type. So a Nanamo death isn't out of the question.

[RobinRethiel]

I guess, I'll have to wait and see in a few months what it will end up being. And which direction S-E will take with the story. Yoshida did admit that he loves Game of Thrones and that FFXIV story is a dark fantasy type. So a Nanamo death isn't out of the question.

Really hope not. FF is not GoT, which is mainly a world full of rape and murder, where nothing exists worth so be saved at all. To mix both would just create an abomination, not GoT, but simply a... raped FF. I'm not even sure if Martin himself knows how this story should find an end, depressing or not.

snip
5. I could have stayed for a trial and proved my innocence!
-Ah, no. With Nanamo dead and Raubahn imprisoned (under lawful charges of murder, however sympathetic he might have been), the law can now be bought and sold in Ul'dah. The only people that could testify to your innocence (Laurentius and Ilberd) are known traitors as well, and it's highly unlikely you'd get honest testimony out of them. Assuming there's a jury the Monetarists / Lolorito could probably bribe enough of them to get an outcome favorable to them. They also probably have the judges / magistrates / whatever in their pocket. So good luck with that one.

Honestly, the only bit of writing I have a problem with is where Laurentius insists you take the vial. I immediately get suspicious when people insist I do things. Aside from that though I didn't feel like any of the writing was particularly flawed, and instead of being outraged at how my PC was made... you know... Hyuran (or Roegadyn, or Lalafellian, or Miqo'te, or Elezen) came out feeling more like this in the end.

You don't even get it, that you are talking with yourself, mainly, can this be? You argue against your own made up points. Well, have fun with that.

The only real argument against one of my points, which is just one of many, would be the last. But that's just wishful thinking of you. You can't just kill of someone that well known like the WoL. Whole Eorza knows us. And Lolo got a problem already, because HE is the one with the motive. He can't need blood on his hands in this situation. Money becomes very quickly useless, if you bath in blood and he does not have the military power be ruler by force. - Not yet. Sure, his whole plan may be anyway to make Uldah an exklave of the empire with him as governor. But even this does not happen in one day. He needs time and he needs everyone running away and letting him do his work. Well, we gave that to him. Everyone did. It's the dangerous game of appeasement...

Blatantly false. Pay attention to every cutscene that takes place in Ul'dah - YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR WEAPON. *facepalm*

And again you make the same mistake. I don't discuss this with you. There is no scene were we give away our weapon. Period. If they don't state clearly, that we don't have a weapon - which also means, that we must be allowed to behave differently, since we know, this a dangerous place - then we still have our weapon. Period. If you like you can say we don't, sure. As I can say, we do.

Linkpearls exist. You know, that thing that Minfilia keeps bugging you with. They could sound the "alarm" and the smallfolk would be none the wiser. The Brass Blade rush would just look like some sort of incident happened in some other part of Ul'dah and they're moving to stop it.

It's still a f**** army. Even if they all got their personal smartphone, people SEE this. Why can't you think a bit about it. Please try at least. Don't just create your own fantasy world inside you head where everything is exactly like you want it. If you want to make a point, you must think about its problems. Else it is none.

Why would they need to when they're already outside the doors, everywhere in the city, ready to move at a moment's notice?

Sure, why don't they just turn us all into chicken or puppets for their fireplace. It's absolutely impossible to keep something this big secret. The point you make would make the whole scene ten times more absurd. It would be far more worse.

Did you even read the PLD story dialogue? It's confirmed that a portion of the Sultansworn is paid off by Monetarist coin.

You really need to do some fact checking, because you're only making yourself look worse with each post.

I did, I'm just not playing the blind fan, who cheers to everything served and defends it with full brutal force. You want, that all Paladins are corrupt, that all Brass Blades are corrupt, that all Flames are corrupt or dumb, that the leaders are corrupt or blind and dumb. You are bending the whole world, so that this coup makes sense. And you are making it worse with that. Because if it would be, as you say, then not only this scene and it small problems would got problems, then the whole main story especially of Uldah would be... simply bad. You try to ruin the game story to defend some minor points. Really?

[Cilia]

You don't even get it, that you are talking with yourself, mainly, can this be? You argue against your own made up points. Well, have fun with that.

The only real argument against one of my points, which is just one of many, would be the last. But that's just wishful thinking of you. You can't just kill of someone that well known like the WoL. Whole Eorza knows us. And Lolo got a problem already, because HE is the one with the motive. He can't need blood on his hands in this situation. Money becomes very quickly useless, if you bath in blood and he does not have the military power be ruler by force. - Not yet. Sure, his whole plan may be anyway to make Uldah an exklave of the empire with him as governor. But even this does not happen in one day. He needs time and he needs everyone running away and letting him do his work. Well, we gave that to him. Everyone did. It's the dangerous game of appeasement...

Really am I? I could have sworn I heard you saying stuff like "I'd never give up my weapon!" etc... but, in the interest of staying civil, I'll offer a rebuttal.

Fact is, there's no way to prove your innocence. You'd need eyewitness testimony from Laurentius (who pointed out the empty vial and insisted you take it), Ilberd (who admitted to being personally responsible for the Sultana's poisoning), and Nanamo (who is the only one besides you who knows what happened in that room at that time). The first two people are clearly corrupt and in the Monetarists' / Lolorito's pocket, and Nanamo obviously can't testify for you (being dead and all). Regardless of whether or not you have a motive, without honest testimony from at least one of those three there's no other suspect. You were found, in private, with the cause of death and Nanamo having died not moments ago. Nobody had come into or out of her room while you were speaking with her. If Ilberd and Laurentius don't fess up, logically you are the only one who could have done it.

And, again, they could easily bribe the jury assuming there is one, and likely have whatever the Ul'dahn analogue for a judge is in their pockets as well.

Would the smallfolk believe you're earnestly responsible? ... probably not. Would they rebel against such an obvious setup? Maybe. Still, with the Sultana dead the Monetarists / Lolorito gain control of the state, letting them enforce martial law to quash rebellions. Most of the people in Ul'dah are merchants anyway; they wouldn't be able to fight back against the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves (highly trained and experienced mercenaries / soldiers). Either way rebellion would lead to civil war, which is the last thing all Eorzea needs right now with Garlemald looming on the horizon and looking for any weakness to exploit.

The ultimate problem people seem to have is I could have prevented this. Yes and no. Much of what happened in Ul'dah had absolutely nothing to do with you, the Warrior of Light. It was a political game that didn't really have anything to do with you, the machinists of whom set the game into play long ago (2.2 or earlier). We really had nothing to do with the political intrigue of Ul'dah until we were made a scapegoat for the Monetarists' assassination of Nanamo. At the same time the PC did have a brief window of opportunity to do something (e.g. not take the vial, leave it elsewhere while going to meet the Sultana, etc.) and savvy PCs wouldn't have fallen for it. Again, though, from the story's perspective we were rushed and didn't think it was important, so we took it with us. End. Of. Line.

[gamesmart]

I really shouldn't be doing this, but I'll bite anyway...

And again you make the same mistake. I don't discuss this with you. There is no scene were we give away our weapon. Period. If they don't state clearly, that we don't have a weapon - which also means, that we must be allowed to behave differently, since we know, this a dangerous place - then we still have our weapon. Period. If you like you can say we don't, sure. As I can say, we do.

There doesn't NEED to be a scene that shows us giving away our weapon. We don't see every single thing that happens - because we don't need to. What would be the point of a cutscene in which all we do is approach a guard, nod, and enter the sultana's bedchamber? All we need to note is that for those of us who show our weapons sheathed, our weapons WEREN'T THERE.

It's still a f**** army. Even if they all got their personal smartphone, people SEE this. Why can't you think a bit about it. Please try at least. Don't just create your own fantasy world inside you head where everything is exactly like you want it. If you want to make a point, you must think about its problems. Else it is none.

Everyone in Ul'dah knows about its political state. Nobody would be surprised if a riot broke out in some other part of the city-state, and that could easily be the excuse the Brass Blades would use when moving en masse. Few would question it, and those that did wouldn't want to go investigate anyway - going towards a riot is generally a bad idea.

Sure, why don't they just turn us all into chicken or puppets for their fireplace. It's absolutely impossible to keep something this big secret. The point you make would make the whole scene ten times more absurd. It would be far more worse.

It's in fact very easy to keep such a big incident a secret - just look at Ul'dah now. None of the smallfolk know exactly what happened - only rumors and the "official statement" to base their discussions off of. See my above comment for why it would be easy to excuse the movement of a large contingent of armed forces.

I did, I'm just not playing the blind fan, who cheers to everything served and defends it with full brutal force. You want, that all Paladins are corrupt, that all Brass Blades are corrupt, that all Flames are corrupt or dumb, that the leaders are corrupt or blind and dumb. You are bending the whole world, so that this coup makes sense. And you are making it worse with that. Because if it would be, as you say, then not only this scene and it small problems would got problems, then the whole main story especially of Uldah would be... simply bad. You try to ruin the game story to defend some minor points. Really?

I did not say that ALL of them are corrupt - in fact, quite the contrary. Plenty of Brass Blades know you're innocent, there's at least two Sultansworn (well, one isn't really anymore) who aren't corrupt, and the current leader of the Flames is most certainly NOT corrupt. I'm not bending anything to "validate" the plot when it's already been set up that way.

Please help keep the discussion civil, don't throw insults around when trying to argue a standpoint. (It doesn't lend credibility to your argument either.)