Why I have no interest in Coils more specifically, T9.

[Stanelis]

Actually the main issue with raiding in FFXIV is that classes simply don't have enough specialization tools and utility abilities.

In the old days of MMORPG (and RPG), you had countless classes, abilities and ways to tune your character (dark souls and demon souls works that way too). On the other side, you had bosses which were doing their abilities (here again, think dark souls) but didn't have particularly exotic patterns (they were mostly stronger normal mobs).

As a player you then had to come up with a way to specialize your character and make a clever use of your abilities (whom you choose by adapting your team comp, as an example), by finding a strategy (based on the skills you were using) in order to kill bosses. There were usually more than one or two (very different) ways to kill any particular bosses.

The main issue of FFXIV is that you cannot really specialize your character, there aren't a whole lot of classes and the classes aren't very different from each other, in any given role. Plus the number of (utility) abilities for each classes is very low. Furthermore, the very low number of players in a party doesn't allow for a whole lot of variation in a team composition, thus limiting the number of possible strategies (but, here again, as there isn't much differences between the classes of any given role, this doesn't make much differences in FFXIV).

Therefore SE had to come up with raids whom the completion didn't trully depend on a strategy invented by the players, by coming up with a clever team composition or abilities combo, but rather on artificial ways to decide the success or the failure of an encounter. These artificial ways includes bosses in which you have to move a certain way in order not to wipe (almost every bosses from T5, as an example, the P4 of the T9 is a staple of those bosses in which you re more dancing than fighting).

[SpookyGhost]

SVHM last boss. You actually don't look at the cast bar in this fight. You closely watch 2 different bosses. Imagine that. I have more enjoyment out of svhm last boss than t9/13 anyday. In fact I think t13 is the most unfun raid in fcob. Maybe in all of coil lol T_T So long and boring T_T And my static is farming the crap out of this these days....

SVHM last boss is cool, but not that hard. He kinda reminds of early Tera BAMs. Would be nice if they expanded upon the idea of having animations for attacks without AOE indicators, though honestly Coil doesn't really have any... you just have a lot of time to react or the mechanics are set in stone on how to do them. I think T7 and T8 are really well done fights in that regard (at least before the nerf), in that they were fights about paying attention to what's going on around you and what the boss is doing rather than trying to dodge x y and z AOEs.

Actually the main issue with raiding in FFXIV is that classes simply don't have enough specialization tools and utility abilities.

This is very true and my main complaint with the current battle system. The only choices you make as a DPS are damage related, never utility related. T2 had Silence, T5 had stun, and then we didn't really get any more CC related things. Disease/Bind could be used on the Renauds if that counts, though it wasn't really necessary. Hopefully everyone gets more utility in Heavensward and the game becomes more interesting, rather than just memorizing your rotation, memorizing the boss pattern, and not goofing up both. It does genuinely get old after awhile...

[XionAvalonArcadia]

Blah Blah Blah -Too hard to memorize-

Red > Ravens Beak > Dive combo > Yellow > Lunar Dynamo > Meteor Stream > Dalamud Dive > Ravens Beak > Red > Meteor x 2 > Dalmud Dive > Ravens Beack > Yellow > Combo > Red > Ravens Beack > Lunar Dynamo > Meteor > Ravenbeak > Yellow > Meteor x2

Favor > Claw > Fire Out > Thunder/Dynamo > Fire In > Thunder > Fire out w/Iron chariot + Thunderstruck > supernova x3 (run in on 2) > T Beam > Fire in > Claw > Thunder > Divebomb(First to A, second to B) > Meteor > Divebomb > meteor > Divebomb > Dalamud Dive.


Favor > Claw > Fire Out > Thunder/Dynamo > Fire In > Thunder > Fire out w/Iron chariot + Thunderstruck > supernova x3 (run in on 2) > T Beam > Fire in > Claw > Thunder > Divebomb (First to A) > Iron Chariot > Divebomb (go to B, Save Invigorate) > Divebomb (second to B, Sprint when marker disappears and run to group) > Raven Dive (Safe to stand near) > Lunar Dynamo

[Werhusky]

SVHM last boss is cool, but not that hard.

At my first SV HM run when it was just added I ran it with the people I raid with since 2.1... we thoughts the two Bosses had a function like good ol' Cad where both parts need to die same time... Bit dissapointed it hasn't

[siverstorm]

1) Simplify the number of mechanics to an easily memorable amount (players should not have to study like its a 100 question test) I would say no more than 4-5 mechanics
2) Slight increase in time between mechanic executions, as a pay off to keep the challenge alive, make the mechanics even less forgivable (as in you mess up, you die)

I would say that when designing content they should take into consideration that roughly 40%-50% of their players should be able to clear it while it is the newest content. 50%-70% cleared roughly three quarters before the next new content, and finally 70%-85% cleared by the time the next wave of endgame content arrives. I understand the Echo is what helps them achieve this in terms of get that clear percentage but based on what is seen on the game and on the forums they are no where near the percentages I've listed.

No fight in this game has 100 mechanics piled on top of each other, hyperbole or not.

I'll extend the same question to you that I asked previously.

You complain about too many mechanics. How do you fare learning all the other mechanics of literally every other fight in this game? Or are you one of those people who always end up dead in towers and trials because you can't be bothered to figure out how the mechanics work? Because that's what you're sounding like.

...

There are many players out there trying to learn or even players who have cleared everything willing to teach. But when you make 0 effort vs these players who are trying their hardest (and succeeding) even now in 2.55 to clear T5/T9 in pugs why should the game cater it to you?

The changes you're describing are literally the tower raids. Coil, and by extension the hard mode Alexander are tuned to be harder than that. You're complaining right now that it's too hard without explicitly saying it. Titan could be learned in a night of pulls and it boils down to everyone just dodging properly. Titan ex is also tuned to be easier than T5/T9 by a significant margin. The only communication really needed was tankswaps and even that was obvious.

If you don't want to join a static because of whatever excuses you want to come up with, its fine (flexible statics exist as well as statics that only raid once or twice a week, but you sound like you refuse to put the effort into finding one). But if I can see pugs in 2.55 clearing T9 after spending a lot of time learning the fight, phase by phase, sifting through players lying about their experience, then your argument doesn't hold. You'll just come back saying t10/t11 is too hard because it requires team co-ordination or t13 is too hard because of the sheer amounts of unavoidable damage that go out.

Endgame in most games like this don't really live up to your ideals anyway. It's like arguing that it's unfair doing the harder modes in Kingdom Hearts makes unlocking the secret movies easier. Or the small group that cried way back "the relic quest is so long and grindy but the raiders get free weapons from t9/t13".

[XionAvalonArcadia]

Im sorry you really do not understand how game development works. So you are standing in Mor Dhona and you see someone run past you with some cool shiny new gear. You inspect it and notice its something from the new raid content, something you desire. No one is forcing you to go and get it. Instead you "WANT" it. You want to clear it, either you work for it or wait for it to be nerfed. Those who work for it have a stronger desire than those who wait for it to be nerfed. Its how you get loot desire into the game. They never released an unbeatable fight. If its a matter of adding more and more to a fight, get over it. That is how content progression works. Sometimes the fights get longer, its a test of endurance. Can you concentrate on a fight for X amount of time. That is progression. Wiping for hours, weeks to get your first clear. Its that moment everyone's hype level skyrockets. No one FORCED you to do the fight. it isn't REQUIRED to access Alexander. Its a challenge for those who play the game to look for just that, challenges. Yoshi is CHALLENGING you to concentrate for X period of time, work together and synergize.

[Laraul]

Im sorry you really do not understand how game development works. So you are standing in Mor Dhona and you see someone run past you with some cool shiny new gear. You inspect it and notice its something from the new raid content, something you desire. No one is forcing you to go and get it. Instead you "WANT" it. You want to clear it, either you work for it or wait for it to be nerfed. Those who work for it have a stronger desire than those who wait for it to be nerfed. Its how you get loot desire into the game. They never released an unbeatable fight. If its a matter of adding more and more to a fight, get over it. That is how content progression works. Sometimes the fights get longer, its a test of endurance. Can you concentrate on a fight for X amount of time. That is progression. Wiping for hours, weeks to get your first clear. Its that moment everyone's hype level skyrockets. No one FORCED you to do the fight. it isn't REQUIRED to access Alexander. Its a challenge for those who play the game to look for just that, challenges. Yoshi is CHALLENGING you to concentrate for X period of time, work together and synergize.

If you believe this, you should already have cleared or be attempting to clear Savage Coil. Just like you say, it's Yoshi's CHALLENGE that will test your endurance like no other! You'll be wiping for hours and hours. It's specifically for those whom play the game looking for a challenge. Right?

Me? I just want to clear turn 9 for to sole purpose of progressing. And I don't want to have to give up my life outside the game to do it.

[OMEGA_HACK]

XionAvalonArcadia, please do not quote me and change my words, if you must, use "snip" or a blank quotes, the very fact that you took the time to change my words into something that I never said just shows how mature and willing you are to actually listen to very valid problems that this game will incur in the long haul. Let me make it a bit clearer for you, this game offers ONE challenge: organized memorization.

Like many people are stating the ONLY way to make the game more challenging is to change it before it becomes even more of a problem. What I mean is that the very function of endgame mechanics need to vary up, like my Titan EX example, it was paced well and was challenging at the time of its release, however because the game so far has only been able to deliver this one challenge to the players in the endgame raids. Honestly Cerberus was one of the best mechanics ever put into this game as it was new and refreshing from the same old stuff we have been doing since the first Primal battle. If they continue to develop content that only offers this kind of gameplay there are only a couple ways they can make it more challenging:

1) Make mechanics stack on top of each other or have slight overlaps requiring the perfect precision in order to complete (from the first EX Primal to Bahamut Prime we have seen this as a factor as mechanics are getting closer and closer to one another)
2) Make more dodge/stack mechanics appear in a single battle (which we have also seen from the first EX Primal to Bahamut Prime)


Side Note: Frankly I think the Dreadwyrm gear is the worst gear design this game has put out save for the Magic DPS Soldiery Tomestone gear. So no I do not see someone running around with "shiny" gear and go "OMG MUST HAVE IT AND I DONT WANT TO BE CHALLENGED TO GET IT!" I want a challenge, however I don't want "Final Fantasy XIV: Rock Band: Can You Hit All The Notes Edition" which if change does not happen is where it will go.

[Stanelis]

Im sorry you really do not understand how game development works. So you are standing in Mor Dhona and you see someone run past you with some cool shiny new gear. You inspect it and notice its something from the new raid content, something you desire. No one is forcing you to go and get it. Instead you "WANT" it. You want to clear it, either you work for it or wait for it to be nerfed. Those who work for it have a stronger desire than those who wait for it to be nerfed. Its how you get loot desire into the game. They never released an unbeatable fight. If its a matter of adding more and more to a fight, get over it. That is how content progression works. Sometimes the fights get longer, its a test of endurance. Can you concentrate on a fight for X amount of time. That is progression. Wiping for hours, weeks to get your first clear. Its that moment everyone's hype level skyrockets. No one FORCED you to do the fight. it isn't REQUIRED to access Alexander. Its a challenge for those who play the game to look for just that, challenges. Yoshi is CHALLENGING you to concentrate for X period of time, work together and synergize.

I think you re missing the point here. Nobody is saying the raids should be easier, but that they should be designed in another way.

Also if the only incentive to a particular content is the gear you get at the end, then the content is poorly designed. As an example, there are little to no rewards to playing a game such as league of legends, yet millions of players plays it.

Also one could argue that raids in FFXIV are not about synergizing and working together. It's more an affair of finding 8 players knowing the dance of any particular raid and executing it more or less flawlessly (depending on gear) on their own. Pug groups understood it well as most people require "experienced people" who know the fight. If the game was about playing together well, then knowing the encounter wouldn't be that much of an issue.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I think you re missing the point here. Nobody is saying the raids should be easier, but that they should be designed in another way.

Also if the only incentive to a particular content is the gear you get at the end, then the content is poorly designed. As an example, there are little to no rewards to playing a game such as league of legends, yet millions of players plays it.

Also one could argue that raids in FFXIV are not about synergizing and working together. It's more an affair of finding 8 players knowing the dance of any particular raid and executing it more or less flawlessly (depending on gear). Pug groups understood it well as most people require "experienced people" who know the fight. If the game was about playing together well, then knowing the encounter wouldn't be that much of an issue.

Then it just degrades into tank and spank, and dodge fest, which we already have in titan, and people don't like titan. Coil is fine as it is, even with it being a "dance", and having it memorized, it still takes effort to pull off. If they took any of that away, it wouldn't really be hard.

Take GW2 for instance, none of the fights in that game are scripted really, and none of them are all that hard, you just avoid stuff and kill the boss. Very boring when you want a challenge.